Episode 8 - Presence, Practice, and the Lycra Paradox

00:00:00: Welcome to Chigong Academy's podcast.

00:00:02: Today we have a special guest here, Catherine!

00:00:05: Yay!

00:00:06: Do you want to introduce yourself and say some words about you?

00:00:11: Of course I'm Catherine, Katherine Barley...I've been practicing yoga for a very long time.

00:00:17: i think it took my first class in the late seventies And early eighties.

00:00:23: I came across Tai Chi.

00:00:26: so It has been quite a journey from those days to now finding the Chigong Academy, because I've had a chigong practice probably more consistently for the last ten years.

00:00:40: So putting that in the framework of yoga it's some big change for me and particularly at this time of life.

00:00:47: so i'm very happy to talk about this and answer any questions that you might have.

00:00:51: um about the crossovers the similarities

00:00:58: which is a perfect bridge to John.

00:01:01: Okay, well yeah... Well I'm John and have been doing Qigong since the late nineties.

00:01:06: so where?

00:01:06: Yeah!

00:01:08: But i've got very little experience of yoga.

00:01:11: but..I mean To be fair my experience of Yoga Is going into class are very flexibendy people who all seem to be wearing lycra And feeling deeply inadequate about mobility

00:01:22: Resonates

00:01:23: Which I think my sense is.

00:01:25: it's really unfortunate, because i don't think that's what yoga is.

00:01:32: Just...I'm curious!

00:01:34: Because we've had conversations before Catherine about what you perceive yoga to be as opposed to generally perceived as so.

00:01:44: could you explain?

00:01:45: What do you think yoga is?

00:01:47: or say a few words?

00:01:49: That is the tricky one when you talk about lycra and bendy people, that's really how it evolved in the West on a marketing platform.

00:02:03: So for instance when I first started if you really want to dig back there was no such thing as a yoga mat.

00:02:12: we didn't have special outfits were very modestly dressed down to the ankles up to the neck sheets on the floor, and after every class someone would come around to take a sheet off.

00:02:26: And then for our own space we'd take a towel.

00:02:34: so it looked very different.

00:02:40: I don't know that is any difference because the essence of this is about presence.

00:02:49: Sometimes that gets missed, it can get missed for the shapes.

00:02:53: you talk about Chigong and waving their arms around wearing pyjamas.

00:02:57: Well this has really gone into the yoga version of pyjama's but Lycra And definitely in to the realm more performance.

00:03:10: It was lineage based when I first learned There is one yoga studio in London.

00:03:19: What's Lycra?

00:03:22: Stretchy, stretchy runners wear lycra or it used to be a go runner wearing lycra.

00:03:29: They're very tight.

00:03:31: I mean

00:03:31: there are all sorts of modern fabrics now that much better and breathable and very comfortable to wear.

00:03:37: so the lycra thing is bit of joke really isn't?

00:03:42: Yeah,

00:03:48: we have an acronym in the UK which is MAMIL.

00:03:53: Which is a middle-aged man who's typically on a bike and Lycra it slightly derogatory but its brand name as well.

00:04:07: I say that no i'm not admitting to being person who wears lycra.

00:04:14: Do you think there is a difference between the mat practice and the towel practice or without the mat-practice kind of thing?

00:04:23: Oh, very much.

00:04:24: Very much so!

00:04:26: When did the mat come?

00:04:28: Probably sometime in the eighties.

00:04:31: it was um... A lady that had been visiting Germany And she found some underlay for carpets.

00:04:40: It was separate from the carpet I think.

00:04:42: later on foam was attached to carpets and that was like a built-in underlay, if you'd like.

00:04:50: And she brought this underlay back to the UK in huge great roles... ...and cut it up!

00:04:57: It made just most brilliant yoga mats which are non sticky mats.

00:05:02: they called them because when you put your feet on a sticky mat there's little bit of friction.

00:05:09: so no slip.

00:05:11: The mats didn't slip because obviously they were designed to keep the carpet in place and it worked on bare feet.

00:05:20: Right,

00:05:21: so that was amazing.

00:05:22: you know we paid about three pounds fifty for a yoga mat.

00:05:26: I mean You can pay hundreds free yoga mat now

00:05:28: But but that's not the kind of yoga mat.

00:05:32: or is there difference between the height?

00:05:35: Yes Yeah, so

00:05:39: very very thin and I still use them today.

00:05:44: Okay But when you used to soft ones or do hide one hide what?

00:05:50: You Or you will lose the benefit.

00:05:52: Do you?

00:05:53: because yeah

00:05:56: it depends.

00:05:56: there are mats.

00:06:00: When people bring yoga mats to class they tend to use camping mats or exercise mats and they will.

00:06:07: if you just push them on the floor, on a wooden floor.

00:06:09: They'll float away because they're not designed to stick to the floor.

00:06:14: but there are high-tech yoga mats that have been developed that are really thick and really heavy.

00:06:25: so there's a particular kind of yoga that tends to favour those mats.

00:06:30: Ashtanga yoga will use those mats, they're very dense.

00:06:34: Very heavy.

00:06:35: I mean you have to push weight to be able to carry your yoga mat.

00:06:39: Oh it's a training effect!

00:06:41: It is quite a thing to see ashtangas carrying their yoga mat there dripping on for dear life.

00:06:48: so the mat did change things but of course with that after time came all the marketing...the clothing

00:06:56: yeah

00:06:57: and all that stuff i can't believe bit to myself, but all that fluffy colourful stuff is just marketing around the yoga stuff.

00:07:08: The Yoga is something else?

00:07:10: Yes absolutely.

00:07:12: and then of course once we started in the digital age it began to be heavily marketed on platforms.

00:07:20: what was I hearing?

00:07:22: get your chair tai chi yoga printable practice session online so they kind of merge the buzzwords together to try and sell anything.

00:07:38: So this is what's happening, yoga has become a no-no word really.

00:07:42: it could be anything... It could be biscuit you know like a yo-yo biscuit, yoga biscuit!

00:07:50: It feels

00:07:54: not such a shame though because you know, the work that we're doing around Qigong.

00:08:01: I think it's fair to say that quite a lot of what we are putting out there especially with research works is really on the periphery of what your classified qigong would be or what traditionalists' word-classified qigongs and its about making them more accessible.

00:08:18: so for all things which have happened in yoga As an outsider to me, there's this piece about it when the root into it is mistaken for the practice itself.

00:08:36: Yes that's very visible today!

00:08:37: That's exactly what we see.

00:08:39: so... It's really confusing for people looking for classes because they don't really know What They're Looking For and This Is Why I Always Offer a Free Class.

00:08:50: Oh,

00:08:52: I'll have a conversation with someone before they come to class because i can usually tell by a conversation if i'm better to recommend them to a colleague rather than then come to my class.

00:09:02: Because it's wasting their time... It's wasting the classes' time you know?

00:09:07: Because classes get quite cohesive in the way that they work and as teaching is easy to give attention to new people who are trying out for free And they're bringing their mother, you know or their sister and if one comes They both come.

00:09:25: If one doesn't come neither of them can.

00:09:29: So but there's a lot of competition.

00:09:32: There is a lot variety certainly lots of choice for me.

00:09:41: when I started yoga had bad back so friend recommended it.

00:09:49: After going to two classes, I found myself going three or four times a week.

00:09:55: It just fell into it and in the early eighties i took Qigong no Tai Chi.

00:10:06: there was place in St John's Wood...I'm not sure if it was um Chinese medicine place but have been in the eighties.

00:10:15: I took a couple of classes there and then i found another teacher.

00:10:19: And one day the teacher said to me, how many Tai Chi classes do you come to in week?

00:10:27: Then I said... One!

00:10:29: He said How Many Yoga Classes Do You Go To In Week?

00:10:33: Then he said, four or five?

00:10:36: He said that you need make your decision whether going forward with yoga or doing tai chi and it flummoxed me.

00:10:46: I had no idea what he was getting at, but it was the best advice that i could have had.

00:10:53: yeah because i was treating the tai chi like an exercise class a different kind of exercise to yoga...and i hadn't taken a teacher training for yoga.

00:11:05: so i was very new..i practiced yoga for ten years before i took a teacher and that was literally my teacher saying to me, why don't you take a teacher training?

00:11:19: And I said because i dont want be a yoga teacher.

00:11:24: He said You don´t have to do it for yourself.

00:11:31: That is the kindest thing!

00:11:37: It changed our life.

00:11:39: I took the teacher training in the early nineties.

00:11:42: i've been practicing for ten years and it just took off, took off in London And then I moved out of London to start classes here In Horsham.

00:11:53: Yeah

00:11:53: wow yeah.

00:11:55: but also you know The journey's been interesting in terms Of different kinds of yoga...I'm sure You have had similar experiences with Shigong Doing different styles on different lineages or different teachers.

00:12:10: Yeah, yeah.

00:12:11: I mean i've spent time in a number of different systems and each system has its benefit And Each System Has Its... Yeah that-I mean..i've gained hugely from each one That i have Spent Time With.

00:12:25: But Sometimes You Kind Of Get The Benefit Then Move On And Another Times you Come Across A System That Just Really Speaks To You And Keeps On Offering Benefit.

00:12:36: And What That System Is.

00:12:39: It's going to be different for everybody.

00:12:40: and how long the benefit, you know... The time between moving between systems I think changes as well but it kind of comes back to the person who said Tai Chi or Yoga.

00:12:51: You know..I was given a similar ultimatum within Qigong by one of my teachers Who says-you either need to do Jinneng Or you needed to do other one?

00:13:01: How

00:13:05: did you feel at the time?

00:13:06: Did it throw for a loop or

00:13:10: do I didn't see right away.

00:13:12: Oh, no!

00:13:15: It sounded as if... You need to come and stop doing that.

00:13:22: And almost felt like you needed me not them your money.

00:13:28: That's interesting

00:13:31: But that was just narrative in my head.

00:13:36: That is the way it played with me and only over time I started to realise although Orchigong ultimately takes you... No, I can't say Orchigung or speak for all schools.

00:13:49: The vast majority of schools will take you a place because that is the core principle within the practice of Qigong, which I assume it's similar to the core principles in the practice yoga.

00:14:04: They will use different route maps.

00:14:07: they would use a different process or technique and if you're studying Technique One over here trying to get that right then Technique Two over there trying to do so You never really get the depth of techniques of either one because your'e learning too much.

00:14:24: It's like you're trying

00:14:25: to read every single textbook there is and never actually doing any damn practice.

00:14:30: Yeah, yoga is the same.

00:14:34: I had a problem with after awhile which i later realized was that the lineages are patriarchal so a lot of them movements are actually sit better in the male frame than the female.

00:14:55: Not not all the movements and it's purely because of the pelvis.

00:15:00: You know women are deeper And have a wider pelvis.

00:15:04: so I think that's how i noticed when I started Qigong with the Qigang Academy, and The first time.

00:15:16: I saw you invite us to bring us down swear.

00:15:19: the feet were together.

00:15:22: My head went.

00:15:24: It's that thing Right because as a woman I wanted to stand with my feet Underneath my sits bones To support the pelvis.

00:15:38: So, I mean i've worked with it.

00:15:40: I've worked With It...I don't feel like that about it now doesn't help me squat but um..i've lost That feeling that I had with the yoga.

00:15:49: The other thing was the yoga Was the turning of the feet and Um....the feet were too close together.

00:15:57: they were turned in a way that turn the pelvis, which for a woman pulls into the lower back and I had a back problem.

00:16:05: so i picked this up really early.

00:16:08: And then I was fortunate enough to come across a teacher who is a cranial osteopath... ...and he worked in London!

00:16:17: He became my cranial osteopath.

00:16:19: it was before I took training lucky enough to connect with him again when I moved down to West Sussex and did like a eleven year practicum, three hours once a week face-to-face those days.

00:16:35: And he would do something... He'd choose the wide pelvis version which was really interesting.

00:16:45: The reason for that is the free flow of Prana And even to the point when it came to turning your feet, on one side his foot would turn and then on another its wouldn't.

00:17:02: Yeah?

00:17:03: So he stands...and somebody will say they thought we were copying him!

00:17:11: To do this in a way that HE was doing it!

00:17:15: The whole purpose of what HE taught is you experience it in your body because it's YOUR own practice.

00:17:21: It's not HIS practice he's sharing his practice.

00:17:26: So I got that idea, that i was a practitioner rather than a teacher which I really liked and He just said this is the way my pelvis prefers it.

00:17:37: yeah That was His answer.

00:17:40: Yeah This Is The Thing.

00:17:41: And I think I've quoted Stephen Fry on this one where when he has talked about the idea of correctness getting in the way of benefit

00:17:50: Yes

00:17:52: Yeah, there's.

00:17:53: I mean...I would say the same about Qigong.

00:17:57: Qiglong is a patriarchal practice.

00:18:01: It has generally been developed by men and we can see again There are certain movements that have very specifically.

00:18:10: Well they feel quite gender specific but They're not gender-specific.

00:18:16: The detail of how you perform them Is gender-specific But the intention goes beyond And so it's that thing about trying to do it correctly.

00:18:26: Correctly is going to be different for everybody, but finding somebody who can teach the underlying intention or explain the underlying intension will give you some kind of sense what might have been.

00:18:38: I think thats really useful.

00:18:42: It is and its not easy.

00:18:46: So i developed a way teaching with opposites.

00:18:51: So, I've heard you say when we do an open step.

00:18:53: You know what a closed-step?

00:18:55: You have to know what the close-step feels like... ...to be able to appreciate and open steps.

00:18:58: so even sitting in a chair um.. ..I will get them to sit.

00:19:06: Pride & Prejudice!

00:19:07: Like Elizabeth Bennett you know legs there ya

00:19:10: go!!

00:19:10: You got

00:19:11: it!!!

00:19:11: You're in my class....so your here.

00:19:13: So i'm teaching him to feel because then its permissioned to do The Man Spread Which when you've got a room full of women, they're laughing their heads off.

00:19:23: Of course because they never sit like that and then loving it.

00:19:27: so It's its then dissecting And asking questions about why does it feel the way?

00:19:34: It feels When you turn the feet out and turn the knees out Because it opens is grounding.

00:19:41: it opens The first energy center to the ground and then all the others follow and then as one a lady so kindly said in class the other week and she said, And then the book on my head is natural.

00:19:58: Because it really was by way.

00:20:01: yeah this is a simple sitting practice in a chair.

00:20:04: So I love to teach that because everybody can sit in a Chair and hopefully most people could have a laugh about as well.

00:20:13: Yeah you know cuz he can get really serious.

00:20:15: I

00:20:17: want to wind back to something you said right at the beginning and it just keeps coming up for me.

00:20:23: You made a comment about yoga being about presence, um... And i was just wondering whether you could explain what you meant by presence?

00:20:34: No!

00:20:36: Okay moving on

00:20:38: It's the most difficult thing to explain.

00:20:44: that's

00:20:46: why you asked me.

00:20:47: Well Curious, because I know that we had a conversation last week and i was talking about the importance of relationship too within the practice of Chigurma certainly in my practice.

00:20:59: Yes yes And I think probably a fairer question is Is there difference between relation to and presence from your perspective?

00:21:09: Oh!

00:21:10: I haven't actually given any thought Because Relation To is really something I've been deep diving into since i've been working with you.

00:21:20: You know, since I'd be in the Jigong Academy and when we talked about relational whether it's mental physical spiritual or relational that was on weekend training ever since then of what that means, relational or I'm experiencing something.

00:21:55: It can be a conversation with somebody or it can be in the Chigong practice and could we doing a bit yoga?

00:22:03: And its relation too.

00:22:05: so for instance being aware breathing is relaxed but also being aware And the breath is breathing itself.

00:22:22: The breath, it's breeding in a body without any help from the person whose body is breathing and also In relation to the air.

00:22:31: that's all around.

00:22:34: So in really so It Is in Relation To the elements or its in relation to nature if you like Or the Nature of Being.

00:22:45: Yeah

00:22:46: And this is the nature being present.

00:22:48: then That would probably come on as an extra question, because I've been used to it's flung around such a lot this thing about being present.

00:22:59: Yeah

00:23:01: but its only really thrown the light on for me when i got that conversation you gave about relational.

00:23:14: yeah

00:23:15: The whole practice of being relational.

00:23:18: so for instance standing in community together, not alone.

00:23:28: That brings a quality to the practice that wasn't perhaps there before verbalized... There'd be lots of other things there.

00:23:37: or maybe it's fleeting but the fact that its verbalised and comes at right time yes I would say.

00:23:46: then theres an opening presence where everything else falls away.

00:23:53: Thursday class online.

00:23:56: I think i told you this, um...I didn't look at the clock.

00:24:01: yeah

00:24:02: so it's not that i'm clock-watching when i'm doing it although i'm behind the screen.

00:24:08: so you've no idea what i really do.

00:24:13: but that was an example of being connected in relation to Everything that was going on for me with the breath and the stance, And... The cues coming as teachings.

00:24:31: Because you know sometimes when the cues come from teachings I don't know about anybody else but i can be anywhere.

00:24:37: But there!

00:24:40: You know?

00:24:41: I might have a worry or concern Or something flashes in into my mind.

00:24:48: It could be body ache or pain.

00:24:53: That's distracting.

00:24:54: those things that distract you know.

00:24:57: Yeah,

00:24:58: it was probably luck more than anything But very skill teaching I have

00:25:05: to say of course

00:25:07: goes without saying.

00:25:09: I don't think i've answered your question

00:25:11: No, but actually in saying it.

00:25:14: It's made me go.

00:25:15: is there actually a difference between being in relation to or being in presence with?

00:25:20: Yeah

00:25:21: that some really excellent question

00:25:26: and I think you know i've heard the term being present so many times.

00:25:32: its almost as much of throwaway terms as being mindful.

00:25:35: yeah

00:25:38: Yeah, it's something that feels as if we tend to pay lip service too but don't actually fully engage with.

00:25:46: So the way you talk about in relation two or relational is still something I enjoy mollying even if its fleetingly and practice will be there.

00:26:11: Sorry, thought going through my head at the moment.

00:26:14: And I'm currently on a twenty-four hour blood pressure monitor thing that's sitting here and so over.

00:26:20: now in my arm...I've got a band of my arms inflates.

00:26:25: talking about being in relation to.

00:26:28: it is fascinating because its something i really dislike happening.

00:26:37: What I'm realising in this going off every half an hour is that... ...I have a tendency to be quite fighty against the things i don't like.

00:26:49: It's kind of messing with my head having it go off, because part of its just performing a simple measurement and they're checking what blood pressure likes throughout the day.

00:26:59: but actually for me there are loads of junk which goes along and this is in relation to.

00:27:08: And so, yeah it's strange I think that there are ways we can interact around things but you can find the... find so much more detail in them when we consider our relationship with it as opposed to just inhabiting our relationship without questioning.

00:27:29: Yeah!

00:27:30: It's very rich!

00:27:34: It really does feel like if that central.

00:27:38: I'd like to change the subject just a little bit, actually not much but just a Little bit.

00:27:43: So when you started bringing more Qigong into your yoga teaching um i'm curious what?

00:27:53: The benefit of the qigong or What?

00:27:55: You felt the benefit that qigung was within Your yoga class and if they're an even If there is you know.

00:28:01: Is it Just a label for A slightly softer form Of yoga?

00:28:09: Is it just a label for a softer form of yoga?

00:28:13: Could be.

00:28:15: Oh bother!

00:28:18: It wasn't intentional.

00:28:22: I did say, i've been learning shabashi and wanted to share some things that have been experiencing in class.

00:28:29: see how you enjoy because I think some are really going to like this kind.

00:28:39: Yes, it was received as a gentle form of yoga.

00:28:47: I Mean they loved it.

00:28:49: They wouldn't have cared what?

00:28:52: It's called

00:28:54: yeah Yeah,

00:28:56: it wasn't you experience.

00:29:01: Actually One other big things i found when i work took awhile to find somebody To work with.

00:29:11: i found this guy in canada and the endless sifu who was recommended by a friend of mine at Karate, Sensi.

00:29:22: And it was all online and it was pre-recorded so I never had any face to face stuff with him.

00:29:29: It's very helpful the way his talk is good in small pieces but what i'll never forget one thing he said which has huge impact on me if you've ever heard this or whether use it... I have never heard your say that!

00:29:42: To work at seventy percent just work at seventy percent.

00:29:46: always have thirty percent in reserve.

00:29:52: And that had a big impact on me, you know being one hundred and fifty percent kind of person.

00:30:01: Yeah!

00:30:02: I'd got to the stage with the yoga.

00:30:04: so over done everything i've even done hot yoga was teaching for quite awhile down in Hove actually.

00:30:13: Sorry?

00:30:14: What is Hot

00:30:14: Yoga?!

00:30:15: Oh, a hundred and five degrees.

00:30:18: In Celsius?

00:30:21: I don't know.

00:30:23: Oh you'll have to check that one.

00:30:25: Joe go on quickly.

00:30:26: yeah Have a look.

00:30:28: i'm thinking probably forty two.

00:30:33: It's pretty hot.

00:30:34: uh forty

00:30:38: Forty

00:30:40: forty okay.

00:30:41: so the purpose of working in the heat is That the skin as the largest organ of the body And once it opens You can't close it.

00:30:52: It just continues to open and the perspiration comes out, And along with the sweating Comes all the internal fight That's being held back.

00:31:05: There is no way of holding it in No matter how uncomfortable we feel The sweat stripping or there somebody in front Of you that when they kick their leg up Its like you've got a duck.

00:31:17: its really Not very sanitary I'd say But it was a lot of fun, and I really discovered how great it was for the body to be in heat.

00:31:32: And how it moves differently... ...and i've been able to use it.

00:31:35: definitely used it in the heat wave that we had because people were scared coming into class using blackout blinds on one of their venues and talking about how important this is because you know being for the body to be able to warm the muscles, let them lengthen naturally.

00:31:53: And we were doing the quietest of practices with a little bit of chigong in there as well.

00:31:58: so it was a wonderful experience.

00:32:00: I mean i don't teach it now when i've never taught again but i learned a lot from that.

00:32:08: But this seventy percent have you heard?

00:32:15: I've not heard that specifically, but it kind of... It does resonate in the sense there is a useful level to try

00:32:27: at.

00:32:27: Maybe that's what you meant?

00:32:33: I can recognise that.

00:32:35: I don't think i've ever said it to anybody and I should probably say it to myself more often, so be honest!

00:32:40: So...I'll have to play with this one a little bit and see where I go with that.

00:32:47: Well..I found it helpful.

00:32:49: And when I was teaching Shibashi well still do they always remembered the ones who are a bit gung-ho.

00:33:04: Actually, I'll tell you where this does sit because I tend to use the idea of it's a release.

00:33:12: It's not a stretch

00:33:13: Yes

00:33:15: And i think that probably sits in the same ballpark doesn't it?

00:33:18: yes...I

00:33:20: definitely do Because when im talking about Stretch I don't like talking about stretch cause I dont' think yoga is about stretching.

00:33:32: There are alot people who will disagree with me But I think in order to be the maximum amount of opening, the joints need to be open and everything has to be relaxed for that to happen.

00:33:52: So you get that in the chigong stance... And then when the body moves somatically It's not, it doesn't feel like a stretch.

00:34:10: You know when you have a yawn and you know there is more to come but theres that hovering before the yawn really comes out?

00:34:19: The body can go through that phase as well and its porchy up, porchy down.

00:34:29: It gives me a sort of reminiscence of that somatic kind of yawning, except when it's full body... ...it's intense.

00:34:40: But then it does have that relaxation response afterwards because there is place for that.

00:34:50: Yeah!

00:34:52: Oh I'm going to sit with this one as well?

00:34:54: Yes so-

00:34:55: I've got one more question i want to ask.

00:34:57: Okay

00:34:58: okay.

00:34:58: One more question and its one that I get asked and I honestly do not know the answer.

00:35:04: i get asked questions like, is prana the same as chi?

00:35:08: And what are the shark...and other chakras the same that the danta ends?

00:35:13: How did these two systems fit together?

00:35:18: My sense says it's two different roadmaps pointing at the same thing but some of those things have better aligned than others.

00:35:25: because you used the term prana earlier.

00:35:28: Do you consider prana or chi to be the?

00:35:34: And it's okay to change your mind tomorrow.

00:35:36: Yeah, I think...I think i experienced this in two different ways.

00:35:46: It is not too dissimilar but..i don't think its the same.

00:35:50: Thats really interesting to hear!

00:35:53: I'd have to write about it for long enough But please dont ask me Post it, who knows?

00:36:08: But the two systems are so totally different because Chinese is such an in-depth roadmap.

00:36:17: Everything's covered and in so much detail And It's THE map Yeah, presented as like The Map Whereas yoga...it's a little bit wooly When you start to look at Anatomy, the internal and spiritual or what do you call it?

00:36:49: Anatomy of The Spirit.

00:36:52: I suppose.

00:36:54: Off body experience but at same time its off-the-body.

00:37:01: Or

00:37:01: is in relation to...

00:37:05: Oh yeah!

00:37:07: There we go again.

00:37:07: Yeah

00:37:08: But when you see diagrams the other ones They're confusing and it's like they were always meant to be confusing.

00:37:17: There have never been refined in the way that Chinese has where there are sequences, strategies... ...and a certain amount of unwritten process I think.

00:37:39: People translated from texts but scholars argue with one another about this.

00:37:46: uh scholars that have translated from text.

00:37:50: so but it doesn't really help me.

00:37:52: their version is what they translate from the text because they can.

00:37:58: um then there's scholars of Sanskrit as well yeah.

00:38:03: So, its all in Sanskrit.

00:38:05: I suppose The Chinese Is All In Chinese Isn't It Originally?

00:38:08: Yeah

00:38:09: But They're Also Translating It From Their Own Personal Experience because everybody's experience is different.

00:38:20: Yeah that's it.

00:38:21: but then there's an imposition of somebody else's correctness on their students which creates traditions and lineages, I think... It's not to say the traditions in the lineages are that restricted.

00:38:39: i think some of the teachings that i've experienced they're presented in a way At the same time, yeah.

00:38:51: Now I'm endlessly fascinated because my sense is that yoga and qigong are fundamentally a very similar practice just growing up in different cultures.

00:39:03: Totally different cultures yes.

00:39:06: And also as stories go Yoga was used for military Braining young boys to become soldiers.

00:39:22: Yeah, I mean we've got the same in Qigong.

00:39:25: We have the Hengshang practices and Wushu practices.

00:39:32: For different purposes?

00:39:34: And whatever the most beneficial purpose of practice was is in culture at that time it will be molded into this place an increased amount of work saying that Taiji and Shigong are great for stress and anxiety.

00:39:53: Well, arguably before what, nineteen thirties?

00:40:01: Stress and anxiety didn't even exist!

00:40:03: Yeah it wasn't

00:40:04: a

00:40:05: concept was it?

00:40:06: I mean there wasn't no language.

00:40:08: Yeah, you know stress was the term that was used for the pressure.

00:40:12: You put on an object in balance and physics it's just um.

00:40:18: The practices move with time Um.

00:40:21: And then the marketeers tend to grab it and go oh this ancient practice To deal with stress That never existed In ancient times.

00:40:28: Yes It's worth marketing tools isn't they?

00:40:32: They're getting polished and stressed.

00:40:34: The marketing tool stresses out.

00:40:40: Well, we've been chatting quite a while haven't we?

00:40:44: So I think how are we doing?

00:40:46: Joe?

00:40:47: have you got an eye on the clock there.

00:40:49: I would say around forty minutes.

00:40:51: so if you had one question then that is your last question.

00:40:57: or If You Have A Question Catherine to John and me just go on but just one.

00:41:02: Okay

00:41:03: Just One!

00:41:12: I'm still flummoxed about The Squat

00:41:17: So am I. There was, um...I tell the story about being on retreats.

00:41:26: Oh!

00:41:27: Can't remember how many years ago it was.

00:41:28: now It's quite a while ago and there were persons standing next to me.

00:41:33: She is one of these people who didn't matter what she did.

00:41:36: it looked effortlessly elegant And unfortunately this particular morning The only space in the room that we could work because squat with her faces to the walls, was right next to this person and at the corner of my eye I can just see her effortlessly and beautifully rising and sinking up and down their wall.

00:41:57: And i'm there!

00:41:58: My nose is hitting a ball...and i've got sweat marks that have probably snuck marks down though it was

00:42:03: horrible!!

00:42:04: It was really grim.

00:42:05: you do not want to be anywhere near me when i'm trying to squat..I'm useless at it.

00:42:09: um but....i kind of quietly went off but I met up with her about, might have been six months later and we were having a conversation about it.

00:42:24: And i said you know...I stood next to when you were doing squats.

00:42:27: how long have you been practicing squats?

00:42:28: She turned around and said this thing that has just stuck with me.

00:42:31: she said yeah but squats are boring!

00:42:36: I was like

00:42:37: oh..i

00:42:38: actually find great value in it because i'm constantly being challenged by them.

00:42:45: Am I, am I struggling with squatting because i have tension here?

00:42:49: Because i have difficulty here.

00:42:52: What part of me is not working when it does work?

00:42:55: why does it work When It Feels Smooth?

00:42:57: Why Does It Feel Smooth And Why Doesn't It Last?

00:43:00: you know all of these questions.

00:43:02: that to Me Is The Absolute Beauty Of Squatting.

00:43:07: as a slightly inflexible Westerner um...I love squatting cause'i will never be good at it And I've always got something to learn from it.

00:43:17: Fantastic, i love that answer.

00:43:19: and also it completes the idea... ...that the only constant thing in life is change.

00:43:26: Particularly on your squats!

00:43:28: Particularly on the squats.

00:43:29: they don't get better.

00:43:30: you just find different ways to cheat.

00:43:32: Yes yes

00:43:36: Yeah if you're good at them stop it.

00:43:38: They are boring.

00:43:39: Yes,

00:43:40: what a great answer.

00:43:41: Yeah I know one of you never forgot it.

00:43:43: she's probably always been able to do it.

00:43:44: She was probably born that way when he came out in the squat.

00:43:50: You like squats Joe?

00:43:52: I do part-wise.

00:43:54: some days are tricky but sometimes very easy.

00:43:58: There ya go!

00:43:59: It is a change isn't its never the same twice?

00:44:02: Basically yeah they're in relation too.

00:44:06: One and lovely way to complete that.

00:44:09: yeah

00:44:10: I've spoke the ending word.

00:44:12: oh it was a pleasure to talk with you both.

00:44:18: thank you for your time Catherine as well John.

00:44:21: um so stay tuned next time we release some other conversation.

00:44:25: we don't even know.

00:44:26: still see you next week.