Episode 6 - Teaching Qigong in the West

00:00:00: Welcome to G-Gong Academy Podcast.

00:00:02: Today is all about how to teach G-gong in the West, so John you brought that topic up as last week we want to tell us something about How To Teach G-gon In The West and What Are The Challenges You Faced?

00:00:17: Yeah I think it's... I Think That We Have An Approach To G- Gong That We Tend To Try To Follow A Traditional Or Lineage And We Try To Teach In A Very Traditional Way.

00:00:29: I've found that it doesn't work as well with a Western audience.

00:00:35: You know, if people are really into Qigong they'll put up with any quality of teaching.

00:00:40: They're just hungry for the information and grab where they can.

00:00:43: But If you want to talk to a broader audience And working in more professional way... ...you need to understand so much about the nature is not taught in the same way as you go into a school and your teacher subject.

00:01:01: It's kind of at the opposite end, that the scale of teaching.

00:01:04: so I think we need to spend longer looking at how to teach Qigong um And also recognizing The Way That We're Interacting with it when You Go To People's Classes.

00:01:16: Okay So Can You Give An Example Or Your Face Like One Big Challenge?

00:01:25: Um Well, one big challenge.

00:01:27: Let's try to figure out what that would be?

00:01:31: I think the fundamental issue is a lot of people teach Qigong as if they're putting information in.

00:01:40: so you need remember this sequence of movements and move correctly And it's all about filling people up with information.

00:01:59: Now that isn't the nature of the practice, The Nature Of The Practice is to let go of all this stuff that restricts you.

00:02:08: So All That You're Doing Is Your Filling People Up With More Restriction More Self-Judgment More Sense.

00:02:15: If I Am Not Able To Do This Or My Body Doesn'T Work In That Way or This Issue Is Here and It'S Causing Me Problems.

00:02:25: Qigong is a practice that's about freedom, it's about transformation.

00:02:28: It's an unlearning process.

00:02:31: so therefore we should really be using the techniques but presenting them in a way.

00:02:37: they invite people to let go and release sort of as soon as possible when they practise.

00:02:47: When your first

00:02:48: time

00:02:48: did that I guess you do this with person who came to you, wanted your training or teaching.

00:02:58: What is the reaction?

00:03:00: So and how does it even work?

00:03:03: what do we do?

00:03:04: that they get more become empty.

00:03:08: yeah It's a very mixed reaction And I'm quite happy with being of mix-reaction.

00:03:15: There are certain people will have studied tai chi gong or other arts that are related previously, and they will have an expectation about the way that the class is going to be.

00:03:28: People come along too learn a sequence of movements... ...to learn accurate form.... To become good at Qigong!

00:03:37: And there kind-of not.

00:03:39: some people who come with that idea Will get maybe something more beyond this?

00:03:46: but others will be very caught on the idea and they will then have to go find a teacher who teaches them in that way because that's what they want to get from it.

00:03:55: But, what tends to happen is people actually start... I would say master movement!

00:04:05: I'm always bit cautious about the word master because master implies hierarchy.

00:04:12: let's completely reinvent, well it was not reinvented.

00:04:15: Let's take it back to the point that you talk about mastering a skill and mastering skills such as mastering riding a bike doesn't make you the world's best cyclist!

00:04:24: It just means you can actually use it without worrying about it.

00:04:29: so the question is how quickly engage with that?

00:04:36: in a really interesting way, because they start talking about finding flow of the practice.

00:04:40: They started to talk about finding ease and recognise benefit as it has space for them to explore their benefits.

00:04:48: You know movement right?

00:04:51: Yeah if you get too focused on accurate movements... ...you don't give yourself any space!

00:04:56: But without the knowledge of this movement....

00:05:05: it's a delicate balance, you know.

00:05:07: There is always the suggestion of what the movement should be but there has no way...there should always been an invitation to play with the movement little and find out why that works for you.

00:05:18: How much can go off from this structure?

00:05:24: It depends on your teaching.

00:05:26: Okay so if you're teaching Qigong as part of Wushu practice or an Aan Sherp practice It doesn't make sense to stray too far from the technique, because the technique has direct physical application within a martial context.

00:05:43: And as a great friend of mine said if someone's running towards you and you just wave your arms around it does actually prevent them... You know?

00:05:50: If somebody is coming at with a knife when they do that its unlikely to do anything!

00:05:57: disarm.

00:05:57: You need to know the application, so if you're teaching martial you'll have a degree of accuracy with form.

00:06:04: but there's accuracy in form and effectiveness in application And two are not same.

00:06:11: So accurate form may be as effective for somebody who has slightly different mobility issues As someone that is considered normal mobility.

00:06:26: But when moving into the realms well-being, health spirituality all the other bits.

00:06:33: All these are wonderful juicy bits that sit within practice and then accuracy becomes less important because it's more... The movement then becomes a question.

00:06:51: so for example if you push an arm out what does it feel like to push the arm back?

00:06:59: It's more about it's awesome question of what space does that create for you, which is very different to.

00:07:07: can you do that accurately?

00:07:11: Yeah.

00:07:11: I guess where we want to go when a way feels like relax and authentic That this your practice its way better too.

00:07:21: just enforce yourself to get into the practice maybe hurt yourself.

00:07:26: so

00:07:28: yeah I think the trick always is to find where your edges are.

00:07:35: Because you're not going too comfy with a practice?

00:07:38: Yeah, okay yeah... The practice should always have the potential to challenge it because unless you've been challenged You aren't finding space to actually explore new perspectives or understand things from different areas.

00:07:55: How would you guide describe the path between accuracy and challenge?

00:08:09: enough practice way, I would say.

00:08:13: Or you know what where want to go too?

00:08:16: Yeah yeah

00:08:17: straight arm or how far it must be.

00:08:21: two challenges yourself.

00:08:22: Yeah i think that we need to recognize that the challenge doesn't just exist through their physical accuracy.

00:08:31: The challenge can exist through the repetition, through a number of repetitions.

00:08:37: It can... it can exist in holding up structure but actually more interesting to me is that it exists in practicing with people and repeating same practice every single day knowing they are different challenges.

00:08:58: so there's subtlety constantly find pain or difficulty within the form.

00:09:08: It's more about recognizing the constant changing states that come up through

00:09:12: it.".

00:09:13: So when you're busy at work and work every day pretty early, then it could be just a challenge to let take off half an hour from nine-to-nine thirty German time going into your morning practice right?

00:09:29: Oh, that's a nice plug isn't it?

00:09:31: Yeah maybe.

00:09:33: Very very hidden out here marketing or advertisement.

00:09:36: but yeah no but for real.

00:09:40: sometimes appears to me like uh I need to do that i need to finish that project.

00:09:46: oh its nine o'clock.

00:09:47: shall i jump into that or should i continue the work?

00:09:51: and That is a challenge to say No!

00:09:53: I stopped working at jumping through this session.

00:09:57: But similarly, it's as much of a challenge to notice that has come up for you.

00:10:01: And then when we say no I'm going stay with what i am doing and not join the session That is so much more challenging.

00:10:09: The challenge ceases be present if you don't even noticed sessions coming out.

00:10:18: We used to find this in long form retreats and used to talk people about the process they were going through.

00:10:27: And the process of The Retreat started at a point that People booked To come on The retreat, because At That Point It becomes Something that is Coming up.

00:10:38: it Becomes something that Is arising.

00:10:40: so therefore?

00:10:42: Its Kind Of There in the Back of your mind and its Present and Has an effect.

00:10:47: and it was Fascinating.

00:10:48: Talking to People who Were booking Retreat six Months In advance about the process of coming into a retreat and everything that was coming up.

00:10:57: And comparing it to people who were booking at week before, you know they turn out in kind of... Oh I don't know why i'm here!

00:11:06: What am doing?

00:11:09: They are never going get as much from me.

00:11:14: so the nature of challenge sits within class.

00:11:18: sometimes we need not be there Make a commitment to something and allow that commitment be present within your life, And you'll notice things change.

00:11:27: This is Ido Chido.

00:11:29: Yeah Okay so like um i've booked in holiday almost the year ago.

00:11:35: uh In the future?

00:11:37: And i'm happy and more happy and More happy till this point right when i go To the holiday then the holiday itself will Be way nicer.

00:11:46: maybe because You had The joy too to be happy because the appointment will come.

00:11:55: Hopefully!

00:11:58: If you're not getting ill or your playing, whatever...

00:12:01: Yeah it'll have a far longer term impact and I think that's another thing we need consider here is when we teach make sure we are teaching in a way which is balanced and safe.

00:12:16: so if take an idea of holiday There's a lot of people who, if you turn around and said right there is great deal to fly out this place.

00:12:24: And spend two weeks doing whatever you love doing in the space tomorrow.

00:12:31: Most peoples reaction that isn't going be like great.

00:12:34: let go do it.

00:12:34: I'm excited for her.

00:12:36: It will say oh what should i do here?

00:12:40: You know its likely create significant disruption.

00:12:45: Sometimes that level of disruption is a really powerful thing to use, but generally I would suggest in practices like Qigong we shouldn't be wanting to disrupt that much.

00:12:58: Because what we want at the end of period for person have lasting beneficial effect.

00:13:06: and i think that much disruption before coming into something means you're there coping with it or like a rabbit on headlights then all of sudden its finished Yeah,

00:13:18: okay.

00:13:20: So yeah I think again this is one of the considerations when teaching how can you actually create a challenge that it's gentle enough to create sustainable change?

00:13:36: It doesn't just create dramatic impact.

00:13:40: Alright let's go in another direction.

00:13:45: You start in September and your told me what do trainees learn there and how they can adapt these tough principles in their teaching?

00:13:58: I think the first thing to learn is communication skills.

00:14:02: What do you mean by

00:14:04: that?

00:14:05: The traditional approach to teaching Qigong, with most of the Chinese teachers i've worked.

00:14:18: Okay, so the difficult

00:14:19: thing is

00:14:21: learn the form.

00:14:21: Learn the theory teach it to people okay?

00:14:26: How do I teach you two people now?

00:14:30: if You go right i'm going to do the monkey.

00:14:32: see monkey Do thing.

00:14:34: i'm gonna Teach them exactly The same way as i got taught It when i was on my intensive month's training in china.

00:14:40: and well that structure.

00:14:42: sit down In a classroom Look at PowerPoint presentations, write stuff on whiteboards explain things to people.

00:14:50: Do this movement.

00:14:51: hold that posture for an hour.

00:14:52: it doesn't work in a class.

00:14:55: That's not what people are looking for.

00:14:57: you need to understand What People Are Looking For and In order To Understand What People are Looking For You Can Take One Of Two Approaches.

00:15:05: one is you can become the ultimate wise person And Know What Everybody Wants.

00:15:11: I've yet to meet one of those that actually works in that way.

00:15:14: Or the second one is you need to start listening to people and going, right what is required here?

00:15:21: So you need be able to develop methods so that you can both listen... ...and express yourself.

00:15:28: You need learn good quality communication skills so you can recognise the needs And group dynamics and respond to them.

00:15:38: Once we started doing this then we could move into things like Western AMP, Western Anatomy and Physiology because nobody who comes to a Qigong class is going to describe what's going on for them in terms of Chinese medicine.

00:15:52: Well some might but most people will go.

00:15:55: actually I've got an issue with... And then they would use the western name For what that part of body is or what that symptom is.

00:16:04: we need to have an understanding of Western But We also Need To Have An Understanding Of Eastern Medicine so that we can then translate it into something relevant in Qigong.

00:16:14: And once you've done this, look at the chief field theory and how to manage a group or importance of mind as well as body!

00:16:28: In week two... No.

00:16:31: What?

00:16:31: How long does the teacher

00:16:34: train?

00:16:34: girls, five years?

00:16:37: This really is probably for three months.

00:16:40: we will be going around these subjects and actually save four months because we've also got to include health and safety.

00:16:47: in here We have a look at safe practice And then after four months you can start developing skills Based on the strong foundation that we built within the practice.

00:17:03: So yeah, that's it.

00:17:04: That's the approach that I take The eye.

00:17:07: you don't like teaching form Because my thought is that most bit.

00:17:12: if somebody wants to teach shigong they will already have form.

00:17:15: They will already Have an experience of Qigong.

00:17:20: so why do i need to teach them new techniques?

00:17:23: Cuz Why cuz?

00:17:24: why would you choose

00:17:25: better?

00:17:27: Oh Yeah

00:17:31: When you compare that to this, I would say narrative here in the West.

00:17:36: You need to do that and add form of Tai Chi or Shigong whatsoever.

00:17:41: so... Or maybe a question around how can you respond?

00:17:51: To a person who came across with this idea to you like i would learn about that and then I need to copy your movement.

00:18:02: The first question is why?

00:18:04: because,

00:18:06: okay for your own personal benefit or four so that you can share it with other people.

00:18:12: So so beacuse of what to adopt?

00:18:14: that that I can master the movements when they're not gonna.

00:18:19: I can teach them two other persons because then I'm in the master, with no movements and the choreography.

00:18:26: Yeah!

00:18:27: Then you're the master... ...and then your best than everybody else.

00:18:29: And then you can tell everybody what to do which is great for my self-esteem Because i am most important person.

00:18:35: yet again.

00:18:37: Um yeah whatever.

00:18:41: I think that there's a question here where we need to understand first of all What The Practice does For Us?

00:18:52: But then once we start teaching, it's not about us.

00:18:56: It is everybody else.

00:19:02: I remember that kind of realisation fairly early on when i started to teach.

00:19:09: it was a little while afterwards.

00:19:10: God!

00:19:10: I've made mistakes.

00:19:13: but...I used turn up in order the practice demonstrate my ability and after awhile but that's not what I taught.

00:19:26: Why did you experience something that i didn't teach?

00:19:31: And it's because everybody is different and to start with, It was...I can remember feeling slightly annoying just like weren't you listening too?

00:19:42: me?

00:19:43: um and then it changes!

00:19:45: You're actually telling me something that I've not experienced..you used exactly the same technique But you've had a completely different experience of it.

00:20:00: So now that single technique, which I have been taught as It does this and my experiences is It Does This Suddenly Is doing something Different?

00:20:12: Are they Doing it Wrong or Am i wrong?

00:20:15: Or is there such A Thing As Wrong?

00:20:18: Okay...I really need to ask but I know That You're also Offer Self Learning Online Courses on the Platform Which guides or which shows, provides the practice like lift your body and mind.

00:20:32: And so on.

00:20:32: why do you do that when there is no right at wrong?

00:20:35: Or what When There Is No Kind Of Accuracy Learning Thing Needed?

00:20:42: There is no need for performance at Qigong Okay But there is a real need to understand the benefit of process.

00:20:56: We did the piece about trust, and I think trust is a really big piece here.

00:21:01: One of the teachers that i worked with in China told this lovely story about a lady who had had very simple upbringing.

00:21:07: she lived a very simple life And they taught her bow body which was basic roll down and rolled up again Uh...and..I think if memory serves me right ..she has cancer diagnosis.

00:21:19: She certainly had significant medical condition And they bumped into her years later, and she was climbing up mountains with big packs of stuff.

00:21:28: This is China!

00:21:32: They spoke to her about it... ...and were so in awe because she had managed this amazing healing experience using a very simple technique And one of the reasons they were so in awe of her was because they couldn't do it using a very simple technique.

00:21:50: They had to go through more complex process, and if we wheel it back to The Trust Podcast... ...the Simple Technique didn't create enough trust or it didn't answer enough questions for the teachers in question.

00:22:07: but this lady who has a very who had a very simple approach to things.

00:22:12: It created, it did everything she needed it do!

00:22:18: So if you're like me and I mean i've got piles of books here... You can't see them on the desk..I have papers....you know I'm just like..... I'd like to consume this because it adds depth to my understanding.

00:22:34: but I can flip that around and say That's cause' I don't really trust.

00:22:40: Yeah, I'm constantly looking for more validation.

00:22:52: I've got a far broader toolkit that will make me better teacher and That comes from being slightly cynical in distrustful.

00:23:06: So it's a weird balance

00:23:11: absolutely.

00:23:13: How can you not becoming mad?

00:23:17: Because yeah, the black and white be learning more and problem with trust kind of thing.

00:23:27: I think oh Yeah Who says I'm not?

00:23:33: who says i'm not mad?

00:23:36: I think actually one of the pieces that we've just done which I thought was really fascinating to go through is guiding principles of Chenning Qigong.

00:23:45: So we're working on the translations that Gao from Big Chief Field is doing and it's a document I've never seen before, its ideas that i'd never seen written down or expressed in this way before.

00:23:59: And every time I go through one of these...I kind of get challenged by it.

00:24:04: some of the translations That We Work Through.. I Kind Of Go Through It and Express In The Best Way That I Possibly Can.

00:24:10: But I Know That I Don't Fully Align With That.

00:24:14: It asks me questions and I go, well where does that come from?

00:24:20: Because the position I hold on Qigong is here.

00:24:23: And if a place this document was written in somewhere slightly different Now to ask my question of Is The Place That I'm At Is My Understanding OK On This?

00:24:43: Can i explain it From My Perspective?

00:24:45: Because if I can, I don't need to go the other place and be in that place.

00:24:52: And explain it that way because i can explain through my own frameworks.

00:24:56: But If I Can't Explain It In My Frameworks... ...I Need To Change My Framework And Go Right.

00:25:00: How Can I Express This?

00:25:03: Everything That I Read Is A Question.

00:25:05: It's a question of my understanding is a question Of The Way That Everyone Interacts With Everything As A Test.

00:25:12: And More You Test Your Understanding From My Perspective the more I'm able to refine it down to something that feels far more authentic.

00:25:25: Interesting approach, everything is a test.

00:25:30: life as a test?

00:25:32: Yeah but not a test i hate But Not A Test You Have To Pass.

00:25:34: It's Just Like It's A Question And Sometimes Questions Arise and you Go.

00:25:39: You Know What?

00:25:40: Not Interested

00:25:45: Is Nothing Like In School.

00:25:49: Uh...I Don't Think I Could Ever Get Away With Not Interested When I Was At School.

00:25:54: Yes.

00:25:55: Okay, fair point!

00:25:57: Yeah okay... What would you give a Qigong teacher when you have three points to give?

00:26:09: Three advices I would say.

00:26:13: who started out maybe or even just longer in the process already?

00:26:17: yeah The first thing that i think is really important to say if you've been practicing and found benefit you already have enough to start teaching other people.

00:26:30: You've not got to learn everything before you start teaching, so don't think that you need be all knowing because an All-Knowing Teacher is NOT a good teacher and An All-knowing teacher is somebody who will always have an answer.

00:26:47: they'll never really listen to you cause' they already know.

00:26:51: So DON'T BE THAT PERSON!

00:26:56: The second thing I would say Take time to listen, and I'm going to unashamedly nick from Stephen Covey here.

00:27:03: Listen with the intent to understand not the intention reply.

00:27:08: take Time To Listen because if you listen You find out that people who come into your class are inspiring.

00:27:14: they're incredible.

00:27:16: They do amazing things Things That i've Never Considered Things That I can Feel As If I Could Never Achieve.

00:27:24: But We Only Find That Out By Genuinely Listening To People.

00:27:29: And the third one, which kind of reinforces The other two is you are never a destination.

00:27:37: I remember years ago there was a teacher who's named my can't repeat.

00:27:40: he turned up in session that I was In training that I wasn't and basically stood there and said if you practice long enough One day You could be almost as good As me.

00:27:53: Wow

00:27:54: Now here He's the only person I've met Who has ever actually expressed it.

00:28:00: But i've worked for many teachers who have held that.

00:28:05: They could be, I can learn so much from these people.

00:28:09: they are valuable teachers to me.

00:28:12: but the teachers that i'm more likely to spend time with... The teacher's are more likely really learned form of ones don't act as destinations.

00:28:19: They act.

00:28:20: signposts and mentors or if a question is asked them may not know!

00:28:35: That is the place that I think people need to be at, and you don't get there by being all-knowing guru or a person who understands everything.

00:28:44: You get there holding a state of curiosity, humility... ...a place where they can actually listen to other people but also confidence in how you create space and ask questions.

00:29:02: I guess it's wonderful.

00:29:04: closing for this episode!

00:29:07: So my brain is empty.

00:29:08: I don't have any questions here, so who want to add something?

00:29:13: No All

00:29:15: right Don't know if they would say thank you for listening and Maybe we want to write us like ideas or things You want to hear in the podcast.

00:29:26: then write us too.

00:29:27: info at you go Academy org.

00:29:29: Yeah And let us know and maybe share the episode If you liked it.

00:29:34: Or are you...if you're not a person who maybe like that as well.

00:29:39: And see you next week!