Episode 5 - Trusting Qigong: Beyond Blind Faith

00:00:00: Welcome to Chigong Academy podcast, though this week is all about Qigong and trust.

00:00:05: And yeah overall you brought the topic up John.

00:00:09: so what do you mean with trust in combination or in relation to Qigung?

00:00:15: It was a conversation we've got this Sunday session for teachers where we have whole load of Qigun teachers meet-up talk about stuff support each other there's question they're about how important his trust.

00:00:27: It's a really interesting question because there are so many kind of levels within it.

00:00:35: And I recorded short about and put out on YouTube, shared back into the community.

00:00:40: then all these other levels that open up in conversation about trust.

00:00:47: Now for me personally i find im quite cynical kinda person.

00:00:54: I don't naturally trust stuff need to find more need to delve into it a little bit more before I can trust that.

00:01:03: And my first thought was, I wonder if that is actually a benefit in being a teacher because it means you aren't asking people to blindly follow and going.

00:01:12: oh what your saying is absolutely right?

00:01:15: Because you've got to pull this apart try to understand from different perspectives.

00:01:20: so But it's kind of gone further than that now, and I just think is a really interesting little place to explore.

00:01:31: What is the nature of trust with Qigong?

00:01:35: When you say... You don't trust everybody blindly or so can be also challenging to not trust in our first place like when you adopt a new practice or something just too To open enough to start practices and afterwards saying, okay maybe that's not the best thing for me.

00:01:57: So where is... you know what I mean?

00:01:59: Where's the gap where we say OK go with it or no?

00:02:03: Yeah see one of my major set boxes about mastery.

00:02:08: when first learn a practice quite often your not practising Qigong.

00:02:12: You're trying to remember sequence in choreography movement And thats not really Qigung.

00:02:18: Now In that initial place, I don't think you have created enough space within your practice to trust That it's going be beneficial too.

00:02:27: You because you're too busy Going is this right?

00:02:30: Have i done This four times or five Times?

00:02:33: do what.

00:02:34: the kind of Trust isn't there.

00:02:36: but after a while when you relax into It and you've got kind Of people say muscle memory I dislike The term But we kind of know What I mean.

00:02:44: yeah where When you can Relax Into the Practice Why are you doing it?

00:02:50: You know, that point is...you're doing because you trust it's beneficial in some way for ya.

00:03:02: And your not necessarily trying to achieve a specific outcome but might be trying to do so as well.

00:03:08: But its the trust within practice which makes this possible.

00:03:14: Yeah!

00:03:14: Know what I mean.

00:03:15: So you trust meta layer kind of the answer and wisdom.

00:03:23: Yeah, yeah that there's kind of.

00:03:26: but then they're this kind of subtle degrees of trust to sit within it because I can practice you going.

00:03:32: oh i know its good for my health ,i know is gonna make all things feel better.

00:03:37: um But actually There are Things That I don't Trust And I wish that I did.

00:03:48: The, the one that always comes up is the story in the Haja Center of the adults growing their teeth back.

00:03:55: You don't trust them?

00:03:57: No!

00:03:58: I trusted it happened...I've spoken to enough people who were there and witnessed it and have told you know i've explored it and i've asked the questions over And I know that It's a thing That Happened..and I Know that I want To Trust It.

00:04:12: but at the same time I can feel that moat just that little bit Of doubt within me going.

00:04:19: it won't work for me.

00:04:21: Right

00:04:22: and so I want to trust.

00:04:24: but that inner cynic, the inner person who's going no...

00:04:29: Yeah!

00:04:31: No what do you mean?

00:04:32: It gets in a way yeah

00:04:34: um..and

00:04:37: i think its really interesting because why does this get out of the way?

00:04:43: And if did suddenly grow third set of teeth Um, and started going out there.

00:04:47: Oh dude you can have like gleaming white teeth?

00:04:50: Like me And he don't need to go to the dentist ever again.

00:04:53: um Nobody would believe it.

00:04:55: well my sense is that nobody will believe me.

00:04:57: i'll be put up with some kind of and you're going.

00:05:00: That's why I don't trust it.

00:05:03: Yeah okay because if You do a kind of forecast so people don't believe you therefore It can't be working.

00:05:11: uh Therefore you can't do that.

00:05:13: yeah

00:05:14: But you're biased about how you grew up in society.

00:05:18: Yeah, yeah it's kind of part is old conditioning and part of it as worry about the future And both are those impact on my ability to trust it.

00:05:28: Alright let me go into another direction I would say.

00:05:32: Or i will ask you How can or even learn to trust?

00:05:42: I think you can, but there's a degree of awareness as to what your process is.

00:05:48: Um...I've been working with people for many years and it was one amazing thing that came up in the community!

00:05:59: And i cant remember exactly how this phrase was.

00:06:01: but talking about the connection between loving something group practice & trust.

00:06:06: Now just because i haven't had an experience or something doesn't mean its going to happen.

00:06:14: but actually when we start to work within groups and We start to find that there are people they're who are getting genuine results.

00:06:22: You're seeing People Who Are?

00:06:24: Looking so much Healthier They're Gaining So Much more Mobility Even Though That Maybe Hasn't Happened for me.

00:06:32: the fact, But I've Witnessed it Happening For Others Within The Group Means that i trust It More And More.

00:06:40: And sorry, I think i might have gone off down a slight rabbit hole here.

00:06:44: But there's the thing about what is it that makes me trust and actually seeing other people do amazing things helps me trust That that's possible.

00:06:53: now those people may be far less cynical About Things than I

00:06:57: am.

00:06:58: Yeah

00:06:59: They they made.

00:07:00: you know some People are going to Be completely like yeah?

00:07:04: I believe I can Do that and they go Off when they do It and they Are just incredible.

00:07:09: um And they really nourish me.

00:07:14: But I still know that I'm cynical, not sure about it!

00:07:21: Alright so if i get you right there are individual humans out there who are programmed or biased in an individual way here and there like different groups.

00:07:36: the people can trust blindly a handful of information.

00:07:40: then they trust without any doubt and there are people who have doubts, but can't trust easily.

00:07:52: Yeah, you know it is the trust about when I take my medication.

00:08:14: I trust that this is actually doing great benefit for me.

00:08:19: That's a far easier thing For certain people to trust in because they can recognize the benefit of it.

00:08:24: then Can i trust that?

00:08:26: I'm going to grow my leg back Whereas other People will go Actually sod it why not!

00:08:32: I am gonna Trust and grow My Leg Back And They Can Do It.

00:08:36: So It would depend on how accessible it is for the person and how relevant.

00:08:41: I sit here trying to grow a teeth back, but fundamentally... ...it kind of doesn't matter too me if i do or don't?

00:08:50: I'm just curious about that.

00:08:54: Whereas If it mattered to me.. ..I might trust in little more!

00:08:58: I want bring up a little bit of choosy thing.

00:09:00: maybe Do you remember the speech from Jancer?

00:09:06: and Buchenon, for the German Association.

00:09:12: He talked about trust in relax, Chen.

00:09:14: just manifest what you want.

00:09:17: do you trust that?

00:09:19: or how can apply this approach with trust?

00:09:27: Yeah I think there's an underlying principle here which is the principle of non-action which is kind of the idea.

00:09:41: if I don't give my energy, it will follow a natural cycle and i can just observe that natural cycle going through.

00:09:49: Whereas If I Give It My Energy And Try To Affect The Outcome... ...I Can Become Part Of The Problem.

00:09:57: Alright like when you want to achieve something then You Don't Say God Bid Please Let It Happen?

00:10:04: You Just Say Okay I wish that should be happen.

00:10:09: Yeah, the release and go yeah

00:10:10: it's kind of relax just know that a little work in the way that is going to work.

00:10:16: um That isn't an aspect of trust definitely And at that?

00:10:21: That's a tough one.

00:10:24: The work we've just done on the latest translation and you talk about There's an implication in there from Pengs work but when he's talking extraordinary ability, and I use the term extraordinaire as opposed to paranormal ability which is a horrible translation.

00:10:42: One of the bits that he's talking about being able... one of the key pieces.

00:10:47: he seems to be referring to stepping out your frame of reference so you can experience different perspectives.

00:10:57: Now this is something It takes practice.

00:11:03: So I've got to take these glasses off, they're annoying me!

00:11:06: Right okay oh i can't see so much now right?

00:11:09: So it takes effort...it takes practice in order to do it and sometimes we may question why we want to do that.

00:11:19: um..so there's a trust in the process of doing it and then once you get into a place Turn down the Sunday, kind of narrative that you got in your head and create a little bit of space for awareness to come.

00:11:36: In for The ability to actually listen to others not in order shoot them down.

00:11:42: That then means that you can change your perspective when you don't use your energy in such difficult ways.

00:11:46: So that's a trust-in process as opposed to a trusting outcome.

00:11:51: Mm-hmm because a trust an outcome is.

00:11:54: it's quite dark It's quite kind of directing your chi Whereas the trust in process is, this what I think Jan Scherber's referring to.

00:12:03: It's a trust.

00:12:04: and relax Don't fill your head with Nonsense because you will then respond as if there was nonsense.

00:12:16: Okay so quick example on a friend's boat off the Spanish coast that sounds really fancy.

00:12:22: it wasn't that fancy.

00:12:23: and suddenly out of nowhere we see the Spanish Coast Guard approaching us in this rather large boat at high speed.

00:12:31: And one other people on the boat is just starting to panic, well panics probably are bit strong but there's kind of... oh no why they're coming after us?

00:12:43: What do you think was going to happen?

00:12:44: what are?

00:12:47: And actually, if you think about the interaction that then happened when they came up next to us and started shouting questions at us.

00:12:55: That degree of I'm not sure.

00:12:57: You know?

00:12:57: I'm worried about this.

00:12:58: I don't what's gonna happen Actually doesn't translate well in a conversation and can make things go worse.

00:13:06: Yeah, yeah

00:13:08: Whereas if you just go oh it's a boat They seem to be coming to see.

00:13:13: as you know.

00:13:14: these are the facts.

00:13:17: It's screaming down very fast towards you.

00:13:22: Yep, they come in to see us.

00:13:23: if that's the only fact that you hold then it creates a potential for everything to play out and more natural way.

00:13:31: Okay?

00:13:32: And can you similar?

00:13:34: or Can You fake that?

00:13:37: where do you first have panic For example?

00:13:39: and Then are your mind too bad conversation for example and then you just try To override that feeling With all it's just about.

00:13:50: can you have an impact on the energy?

00:13:54: You've sent already maybe.

00:13:56: Oh, yeah absolutely Absolutely.

00:13:59: but again if we're referring to in terms of trust It then becomes like and another flip side over The voice in your head.

00:14:12: that belief the idea of oh god no this is gonna happen comes up.

00:14:18: So then the question is do you trust that?

00:14:22: or?

00:14:22: Do you let it go?

00:14:25: All right,

00:14:27: so That means don't trust it and Then if you let It Go.

00:14:32: Then You create The space for other Things to happen.

00:14:34: but it's interesting here because what we're talking about Or What We what Trust can be in this situation Is where do you put your chi?

00:14:43: Where do you Put Your energy?

00:14:44: What do you empower?

00:14:48: Can you Release when you're in a kind of desperate state?

00:14:56: and how?

00:15:02: I'm not sure.

00:15:05: I think that this is the difference between practice of Qigong, an application of qigong because it's very easy for us to be... When we will meet up together and practise together whatever format that is It's really easy to get sense being safe space to get a sense of being in very supported space, To be able to trust that connection we have with people In order find far greater inner stillness.

00:15:41: Now if this experience was available for all situations I think it will be easier.

00:15:51: let go the noise comes up but bottom line is It's not Because in order for that to happen, every time you have a little bit of like, ah!

00:16:05: happened.

00:16:05: What you need is get everybody who helps you feel relaxed and come together take the moment and chill out with your.

00:16:11: That's never going to happen.

00:16:14: But actually what can happen?

00:16:16: Is that You Can Take That Experience or Going.

00:16:18: I can find that space With The Support Of Others And Then You Have To Take It Go.

00:16:23: So How Can i Take That?

00:16:25: Find That Space By Myself if you are already in that more difficult state where your trusting the negative, when you're trusting the restrictive.

00:16:38: When you're restricting... Where you're trusting the idea something isn't going to work well it can be very difficult to break that.

00:16:48: Now thats' the application of Qigong because we CAN use techniques here and teach them into beginners.

00:16:53: course things like kidney breathing You know?

00:16:55: It's just a single breath.

00:16:57: We create little bit space.

00:16:59: stop holding onto that negative idea quite so tightly, or that narrative quite so tightly.

00:17:05: So it absolutely can work but you need to know the technique and you need be familiar with the techniques before applying them.

00:17:16: Right?

00:17:18: That leads me into... Yeah!

00:17:22: The other big topic which I would describe as self-trust.

00:17:27: when in this situation of desperateness And you come out of the group and maybe have cancer or something, in a group.

00:17:35: The cancer starts to decrease for some thing where it can handle... Maybe not cancer but may be kind of mental illness?

00:17:42: Or yeah, something whatever!

00:17:45: Then when you go on off-the-group how could maintain these trust things into your self healing capacities and take that even just self trust and self security.

00:18:02: And just take that into your daily life in, I would say comparison like that.

00:18:08: you can practice it a deep state on medicine square garden or the middle of Berlin or whatever where its very noisy, very distracting.

00:18:23: how could do that?

00:18:26: Okay i think one other thing to say here is everybody's experience if this will be different and everybody's process could be slightly different, but there are certain things that can become very restrictive in the process we need to avoid.

00:18:41: So one of the thing is if you have a symptom or something... ...and that symptom isn't present when you practice Qigong.... And then go out into every day world where symptoms start coming back!

00:18:58: Quite often what people do was they will use a technique to get rid off their symptoms.

00:19:04: And it's like you're having a fight with this thing and trying to get rid of that.

00:19:08: I'm gonna win the fight for symptom, overpower it!

00:19:13: Now... That actually isn't a particularly sustainable way of working.

00:19:21: My sense is when something arises if i try to block it out.. ...I can get rid but in getting rid.... I don't stop being there throw a blanket over it and go, It's not there.

00:19:37: La la la la.

00:19:38: Not listening!

00:19:40: You know?

00:19:42: And I can ignore it for a period of time but as i'm ignoring it has tendency to grow...it has a tendency to get bigger..and then a bit later in the day or a bit Later In The Week ..it chucks the blanket off and jumps out at me goes, Ah!

00:19:56: I am

00:19:56: here!!

00:19:58: And ...I have an even bigger reaction because I've covered up with the blanket.

00:20:05: If instead of doing that, I befriend it and go okay.

00:20:10: Okay?

00:20:11: See you!

00:20:11: I know your there...I understand but at the moment its not something i want to deal with.

00:20:17: It's not something that has relevance here or is part of interaction i have.

00:20:24: It acknowledges which is so much more powerful But gives permission choose which path you are going walk down And doesn't restrict something which is then going to grow because of the restriction.

00:20:43: I see, so it's that same thing when you put the blanket over it?

00:20:53: That there's rising up.

00:20:54: maybe a doubt that you didn't eliminate it through just taking the blanket on top?

00:21:07: I think it probably is.

00:21:07: I mean, i remember one of the things that Jan Scheer talked about.

00:21:11: this was going back years and he said if you lock your ego away in a little box then put sort-of in the back of cupboard.

00:21:22: One day You're gonna open the cupboard and go oh what's in there?

00:21:25: You

00:21:28: know,

00:21:33: that is something.

00:21:35: If you cover something up if you hide it... ...if you block it out It doesn't prevent it being there.. ..it just means that you are preventing part of your awareness from engaging with something.

00:21:47: Okay

00:21:49: In the editing work I'm doing at the moment we're doing edits on PDF documents and its a bit like....I don't like that bit!

00:21:55: I am going to redact it.

00:21:57: I can't see it.

00:22:00: It's not there, it means nothing but actually its a big black mark that sits in the middle of document going.

00:22:05: well what the hell is that?

00:22:09: Its kind of same idea.

00:22:11: if we block out it stays as an area that is clearly blocked and will come about you on ass at some point.

00:22:20: Can you go further down to say If You Block Too Much Out Of It You Have A Labyrinth To Go Through In Your Life?

00:22:32: Or it's maybe in another way.

00:22:34: It takes much more energy to live your life because you go have to go around the The black bold Michael.

00:22:45: I think, I think there is potentially a space where You've gone through a period of your life blocking things out and then After a period time?

00:22:58: You're able to thing go back and look and go.

00:23:00: actually this isn't an issue for me.

00:23:03: I think it is possible to find a pathway through.

00:23:05: that is helpful, and for me if i reflect on personal experience.

00:23:11: If we look at things happened during childhood... ...I know there was stuff blocked out!

00:23:18: And when I revisited in my thirties.... ...it no longer had the strength..... ....that's not much of an issue anymore.

00:23:31: And I think that's probably also true as i go through life now.

00:23:36: That there is going to be certain things, that... ...I naturally don't want to engage with and I naturally want to block out Probably in the knowledge or trusting.

00:23:47: if I blocked them at a moment they're not gonna grow But their are other thing.

00:23:53: so If I blocked it then I know They willnt'go away.

00:23:57: What's your difference?

00:23:59: One's a tax return.

00:24:00: Keep coming back & getting you!

00:24:04: But its a very serious difference between things are growing and not growing?

00:24:09: Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:11: I think it depends on what the root of that thing is.

00:24:14: okay.

00:24:15: so The route of the thing for me that happened in childhood was around relationships with other people in certain scenarios That were very much present within school as we move forwards.

00:24:29: then Everybody involved in there.

00:24:34: they learned they developed, they changed.

00:24:38: So that thing was a thing of the past and it doesn't need to be something off-the present because everybody involved has changed so that things quite easy to let go of.

00:24:54: but then on the other side there can be things we block out that aren't fundamentally going to change.

00:25:04: yeah okay

00:25:06: And those ones will carry on being.

00:25:10: And these type of things are growing in power?

00:25:17: I think that they can be.

00:25:46: wanting to be a little bit difficult, and you shut them down.

00:25:52: They don't stop wanting it to be difficult.

00:25:55: the chances are they're going to come back in there gonna do something that's a little more disruptive or little bit more difficult.

00:26:01: And if I do it on...and If i don't manage doing this session then we'll go into another session later On.

00:26:09: Or That sense of they want to disrupt or they dont agree We will bubble up into one star feedback.

00:26:19: Yeah,

00:26:22: it kind of that blocking out has impact on other as well a self.

00:26:30: Now if the same person who wants to throw stuff at you doesn't trust what your saying If you engage with them and allow yourself listen so they can be heard respond in demonstrating that you have heard, you don't need to agree but at least you've heard and understood.

00:26:55: That will mean the person will naturally feel heard.

00:26:59: they'll recognise different perspectives of play.

00:27:02: You're not likely get the one-star feedback or escalation.

00:27:06: The same is true when we talk about symptom If we listen to it if notice what's going on then go right.

00:27:17: I don't need this at the moment.

00:27:18: This is not the direction we're travelling in, it's more likely that symptom will disappear and won't build up.

00:27:23: but if you block out its more likely thats going to come back kick us on ass and give a one star review.

00:27:33: I want to come through with last topic.

00:27:39: As an individual human being how do personally with trust slash self-trust, and as a Qigong teacher.

00:27:50: How can you trust yourself in how to do that?

00:27:57: This again this term of trust is slightly different sense to me because the part that here's the word trust, if I put my Qigong teacher hat on and i wear my qigong teachers hat a lot.

00:28:13: And If I Put My Qigung Teacher Hat On and I go right what does Trust mean to me in That sense?

00:28:18: The Trust is...I'm doing the Right Thing!

00:28:21: I am Doing the Best thing!

00:28:22: I Am Creating Benefit for Everybody who Comes along To the Class!

00:28:26: I'M OF SERVICE TO EVERYBODY.

00:28:30: But the Problem Is..That's Trust from A Person Who'S wearing a Qigun Teachers Hat.

00:28:37: If I take the Qigong teacher's hat and go off, when i wear my Qigung teachers' hat what do I trust?

00:28:45: But actually me as a person behind the façade of The Qigang Teacher What Do I Trust?

00:28:53: That becomes different question because in that scenario what im saying is... Do I trust that can interact with this place As A Qigeng Teacher And create space for people to find their own benefit?

00:29:08: I kind of need to take a step back so that i'm not looking at it from, this is clearly defined relationship and im going to be the saviour.

00:29:18: Im gonna be the guru.

00:29:19: Im gunna be all-knowing...I NEED TO STEP BACK FROM THAT BECAUSE THAT CREATES A BRITTLENESS WITHIN ME AND THE THINGS THAT I TRUST BECOME MORE EASILY DAMAGED WHEREZ IF I TAKE THE STEP BACK AND GO ME AS A FELLOW HUMAN BEING SOMEBODY WHO CAN GENUINELY LISTEN AND LEARN FROM EVERYBODYY.

00:29:39: Do I trust that i can do something here, which is going to be beneficial?

00:29:42: Well yes.

00:29:42: Yes!

00:29:45: But if you put it into the place of Amichigung teacher what should we trust?

00:29:49: then i start to analyse and go oh today we need this movement four times.

00:29:55: follow with eight of these.

00:29:57: make sure your doing them properly breathe properly think right thoughts when finish that you have got to go howler eighteen time before we do a few Hanyuan Ling Tongs.

00:30:09: That, to me is brittle.

00:30:12: But the trust that I can actually interact and listen and engage with people in a way that creates space for things to change... ...is always present.

00:30:22: but the method that the Qigong teacher's hat imposes creates difficulty for

00:30:27: me.".

00:30:31: All right!

00:30:32: Yeah thank you for that.

00:30:35: I guess we really talked about different angles of trust or self-trust and I hope you enjoyed the episode.

00:30:42: Stay tuned to next week, have a good time!