Why Qigong Academy Challenges the One-Teacher Model

00:00:00: Welcome to Chigoha Academy's podcast this week.

00:00:03: This week we don't have a guest, We don't uh... Have specific topic at all!

00:00:09: We want you talk about ourselves About Chigah academy John.

00:00:14: do you want to start?

00:00:15: You've established these business or this company?

00:00:18: Do you want go on with?

00:00:20: why the hell I have done that and what is your idea behind?

00:00:25: Okay thanks for that.

00:00:27: we want to talk about us, our own favourite subject.

00:00:30: Oh I love that!

00:00:34: Yeah well the idea for Chigong Academy...I don't know exactly where it came from but basically as i look at it what they're trying to do is just disrupt and change the whole way that Chigon works.

00:00:47: um It's not that we want kind of get rid of The Old But What Its Turned Into?

00:00:56: esoteric, overly commercialized and sometimes completely missing the point kind of views that sit within Qigong.

00:01:06: So many schools have become really polarized And they're trying to hold onto their students.

00:01:11: There's so many things I see as a practitioner who has been around for... I don't know, ninety seven?

00:01:17: Almost thirty years in the field!

00:01:22: With more practice this doesn't fit.

00:01:28: And I never wanted to set up something that was the school of John, because... That's kind of not the way that I am.

00:01:38: But to create a space where we can get people with different views actually talking and listening from each other as opposed everybody following one person who is what his name he or she is all knowing.

00:01:57: I feel it's really important to create a space that can happen.

00:02:00: And so, that is kind of where G-Gong had me... That's the way it sits for me but probably not the origin of it.

00:02:08: Right!

00:02:09: So what are your ideas about why you do things differently?

00:02:19: Not following as strict form we've talked already.

00:02:24: Yeah I think if we look at the history of Qigong and how it evolved, so... We can talk about the fact that the term only really occurred in the nineteen fifties.

00:02:37: Prior to this there were all kinds other words used for it such as Dalyen, Nagong etc.

00:02:45: but one thing seems certain is you study That consistent in the sense that it's always been able to adapt to the needs of society.

00:02:58: Qigong, uh In the nineteen fifties was established in response to public health crisis.

00:03:06: Um then when it was re-established again in the eighties It was again because of a public Health Crisis and each time we see The same forms come through but they're taught in different ways To deal with different things And so the origin of Qigong is based in Chinese culture.

00:03:24: But yet when we're teaching it in the West, We don't necessarily understand Chinese culture and our needs are constantly changing.

00:03:34: So you know to go...we've got a one-size fits all.

00:03:38: this is the best system of qi gong seems weirdly ignorant.

00:03:44: Yeah, we've got traditional practices.

00:03:47: We have the Badra Jinn and the Yijin Jinn.

00:03:49: The Yi Mai and you know...the list goes on.

00:03:53: but what relevance do they get to society today?

00:03:58: If I actually ask myself a question

00:04:02: What is Qigong?

00:04:04: Thank You!

00:04:07: It's about becoming more skillful with your energy

00:04:15: on a very, I would say daily life applied way.

00:04:24: Okay so i think probably the easiest way to respond to that is to say that Qigong should be present at within everything we do.

00:04:32: it should inform everything that we do.

00:04:35: It should be accessible and beneficial because if its just like weird performance thing that you do once a week when you go to class, or disappear off for weekend somewhere beautiful in order to move like a crane.

00:04:52: It all sounds nice!

00:04:54: But so what?

00:04:57: What we should be doing with the practice is finding things which can bring into everyday life.

00:05:04: To me it means if every day lives.

00:05:07: nowadays there are many different Things that are happening in the world even compared to ten years ago, let alone Fifty years ago a hundred years go two thousand years ago.

00:05:21: We need to recognize the bits within the practice.

00:05:23: They're gonna be beneficial for people in everyday life Because that's where Qigong exists.

00:05:31: That's why you aren't being skillful with your energy.

00:05:34: It's not when you dress up in your beautiful Chinese clothing and stand on a mountainside and wave around or That just performative crap.

00:05:44: You know, any anybody can look beautiful doing that.

00:05:47: but Can they take those ideas and bring them into the real world?

00:05:51: And so it's not to question.

00:05:54: The form It's to question the application.

00:05:58: All right all right you open up a juicy topic.

00:06:01: I want to go into that.

00:06:03: We discussed a lot about um i would say hierarchy Yeah, I dropped the phrase a Chinese businessman and fluffy puffy.

00:06:15: Uh i would say bubbles And uh yeah also these esoteric areas.

00:06:24: But your approach or I would say our approach is differently because you want to have everybody in an we who wants to have transparency.

00:06:32: How came this idea up?

00:06:37: you know, were there any circumstance in your life or?

00:06:43: Well for me probably the first decade that I was with Qigong maybe a little longer.

00:06:59: And then I had this opportunity to go into the corporate sector and do qigong in The Corporate Sector, not as well-being but generally it's leadership and communication skills.

00:07:25: echo chambers that I existed in, where everyone's going.

00:07:28: oh you know we follow this teacher and he said this.

00:07:30: And so we all have to think about it and move like this... It was basically a whole load of people to use the phrase blowing smoke up the arse of the guru!

00:07:46: Oh your wonderful.

00:07:47: and i want to be more like you.

00:07:49: or oh we need to do this the way they did.

00:07:53: but when that moment in the real world of playing with it and exploring, having it meet everyday life you suddenly found the bits to practice were important as opposed to performative pieces.

00:08:13: Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying we regret any training or places i've been.

00:08:19: they all gave.

00:08:20: I then found all the insights that I was able to draw on.

00:08:26: So it isn't we need to get rid of this, or Chinese business people and echo chambers.

00:08:38: but when these groups sit in isolation they use protectionist approaches which prevent them from having conversations outside their group.

00:08:49: what do is don't actually create freedom.

00:08:53: They don't create the potential for transformation, they're just feeding the beast.

00:08:59: You are part of that process and that process has got benefits to you.

00:09:04: but if you actually break out a little bit and start asking questions about how does it work?

00:09:11: Well this is an amazing piece!

00:09:19: I think my internet went wobbly then, didn't

00:09:22: it?

00:09:23: Yes.

00:09:26: That's the thing.

00:09:27: yeah you understand that makes sense... what do you think?

00:09:34: how would people perceive Chigong Academy right now?

00:09:39: um i think because of the stage we're at and there is a bit too much me in the Chigon academy I think it will be perceived as being overly disruptive.

00:09:57: And its interesting because, i think is important that the norms within Shigong are disrupted and they're questioned.

00:10:08: but our purpose isn't really to disrupt our purposes of listening or learning.

00:10:14: so my sense at this moment was people would probably see us.

00:10:19: you know, we're disrupting on the sense that we are welcoming people from all styles of Qigong.

00:10:23: We're listening to people for more styles of qigong with learning together.

00:10:29: but it's not just that...we're doing it at a silly low price because the idea is that the more people who get involved ,the more that we can then support and pay the teachers coming in a sensible rate.

00:10:45: So, at the moment we are very much in the stage of being a disruptive organisation.

00:10:52: We want to stop things that you're going off and spending hundreds or thousands of pounds or euros or dollars because the person your seeing is on top because I don't think that serves anybody other than the Master, and i don't even think it serves them.

00:11:13: Because they tend to get locked into their own self-importance... ...and their own sense of correctness which again kind of flies in the face what Zhigou is!

00:11:25: So at this moment we are very much in a role of being disruptive.

00:11:31: but if you compare those stages of life within Chinese philosophy It's like, this is the warrior stage.

00:11:41: This is a bit that we're kind of being a bit fighty and when move... We want to move away from that into the space where we create.

00:11:52: what is it?

00:11:52: Warrior scholar?

00:11:54: yeah I'm sorry!

00:11:55: We've got really iffy internet today.

00:11:59: Hopefully there was something there That made sense.

00:12:02: How do you like Yeah, get perceived as Chicago Academy.

00:12:10: Maybe now and in a year?

00:12:13: And maybe five years?

00:12:15: Um yeah I mean at the moment kind of... At the moment i'm not overly concerned!

00:12:29: You know people will interact with this as they interact with us.

00:12:32: People will discover us As They Discover Us.

00:12:36: In A Year's Time I'd like to see The Research Work We've Got Going On With Oxford Having Moved Forward.

00:12:42: I'd like to see our reputation among the schools of Chinese medicine that we work with growing.

00:12:47: Um, i'd like To have this idea of Qigong.

00:12:54: We can develop it in a way That we make accessible and feed people In And they find really trustworthy Really great quality material Passionate teachers Teachers who love Qigun More than They Love Earning Money.

00:13:10: Sorry, that's not meant to... No.

00:13:12: That is meant to be a dig!

00:13:15: No

00:13:15: I guess that's a fair point there

00:13:18: And further down the line just love the idea that you know we can become this incredible resource and maybe we're just the place people will be directed who come through various bits of training that were offering out into health service and acupuncture community.

00:13:36: they can find teachers correspond with the way that they want to do things.

00:13:43: They speak their language literally, wouldn't it be great have in multiple languages?

00:13:47: Wouldn't It Be Great To Have It Twenty-Four Hours A Day All Around The World?

00:13:50: You know there's going to be amazing resources here because we continue to grow our courses.

00:13:56: We Continue to Work With The Translation work of the original Chinese documentation.

00:14:04: you Know Wouldn't it Be Great to Have This Place That Is Accessible For Everybody To Meet?

00:14:09: that doesn't control anybody.

00:14:12: It's just this wonderful forum, the people can choose to interact and they can still be themselves!

00:14:18: They can still run all their own stuff but they can meet people here and offer stuff there... That is where I'd like it to be.

00:14:27: That

00:14:29: was wonderful in my understanding.

00:14:31: Why should people trust Gigo Academy?

00:14:34: And the contents you provide?

00:14:35: for example and connected with that question how can they be sure that is correct what you teach?

00:14:44: or I would say, How?

00:14:49: Would You let yourself control the debt.

00:14:52: What do you say?

00:14:53: it's approved kind of Or just Do you do there by your own and you live in your own bias and bubble?

00:15:07: Oh It's such a juicy question And There Is One Simple Answer Never Trust Always Question but the difference is that you will always find answers if your question asks.

00:15:20: We, we always want to hear and listen – we won't brush the idea aside!

00:15:30: There has been something happen with one of our courses where in a closed group within the college it's being offered to somebody who has taken against this course And they've turned around and said, this person has no lineage.

00:15:49: They have no experience... ...they don't know what we're talking about.

00:15:52: There's kind of this narrative that is coming up Now.

00:15:58: my response to it was I want a conversation with you!

00:16:03: I do not need to defend my position or talk about my lineage.

00:16:08: I need to understand the issue because if your offering me or if what you're complaining about is a valid concern that we haven't yet addressed.

00:16:22: We need to address it!

00:16:23: How

00:16:24: would you define valid?

00:16:29: Okay, in very simple terms... If there's a sense of the training that we are offering could actually create harm either on people who then take it and move on That is really valid concern.

00:16:48: if there is enough evidence behind it, rather than just my teacher told me that this person doesn't know what they're doing or my teacher doesn't do it in this way.

00:16:58: Or that's not the tradition which are interesting to hear but... It's just a change of perspective.

00:17:05: If There Is A Genuine Reason We Need To Change And so I said to the organization we've been working with actually is concerning.

00:17:17: as the person says it, we will cancel all of this training and not just this training here.

00:17:22: We will stop doing this training everywhere.

00:17:25: I

00:17:26: cannot be sure that anything that i say Is accurate or true?

00:17:34: Um unless i'm willing to listen To The feedback in the concern You know and hiding behind lineage hiding behind tradition Hiding behind all of the other bits and pieces You know, my teacher told me this.

00:17:53: That just means that you've not considered it?

00:17:55: It means that your towing the line and on a path but you're not being authentic... ...you are just being a replica of the person who inspired you.. ..You should always be willing to question!

00:18:10: And thats what will keep us safe?

00:18:14: Alright.

00:18:15: so the word Authentic is also used a lot in the internet.

00:18:19: how would you define that?

00:18:22: I think authentic.

00:18:23: How

00:18:23: can you be sure that you stay authentic?

00:18:27: and it's authentic?

00:18:28: being authentic in every piece or area of your life, just as a Qigong practitioner slash teacher...

00:18:36: Yeah!

00:18:37: Yeah i think authentic is really interesting word.

00:18:40: again we've taken criticism for this because We said something about teaching authentic qigong And somebody took offense.

00:18:49: That means that you're saying all other Qigong is inauthentic.

00:18:53: No, no authentic.

00:18:54: and this means the qigong which is authentically your understanding.

00:19:02: it's a true representation of where YOU are with practice.

00:19:07: So now copy from teacher because you want to be same as the teacher?

00:19:11: And just tell people exactly

00:19:14: THAT?!

00:19:15: You mean the understood peace in combination inner knowledge or how you express it?

00:19:23: Yeah, okay.

00:19:24: So there's a piece here that is about the way we learn as well because to me... You can learn the process and know what move goes after which movement and how many repeats of this you need to do And have all of those and not understand any of them Because your just going through processes Or take single movements and you can work with it in a way that makes sense to you, That offers real-world benefit.

00:20:00: It creates the potential for relaxation The potential of transformation The potential energy flow.

00:20:09: If one movement is understood like this You have a lived experience But you might've passed all exams but never understood.

00:20:26: You've never had the opportunity to challenge it, to question it.

00:20:29: To be curious... We're back again!

00:20:33: Curious what's the last word?

00:20:35: So yeah um so to me there is nothing wrong with replicating what somebody else has done.

00:20:42: but authentic teaching is teaching that comes from the heart or authentic teaching as something that comes form your own personal experience and it can be completely embedded in a lineage Or it can be, help a lot more loosely.

00:21:03: A lot more freely.

00:21:07: Can you describe what is your type of authentic practice?

00:21:15: When when you see yourself...when you see life and how you practice or teach..can make it maybe more like touchable.

00:21:28: What's authentic but not authentic unauthentic, maybe the chigong which is just I guess...I know that you're in a class and move your legs and arms around as you tell it.

00:21:41: But there's nothing else!

00:21:43: And people go home with nothing changed.

00:21:45: It's like little bit of an hour movement but nothing else.

00:21:49: Is that an authentic?

00:21:52: Just every time unauthented.

00:21:56: or is it authentic for person?

00:21:59: You know what I want you to go too.

00:22:01: I think there's a difference between Okay, I think this is an issue with expectation here and This again speaks to one of the ideas we have within the Academy.

00:22:16: There are certain teachers that i've had that have completely inspired me And they've inspired me and they're engaged and they have taught me a massive amount but for short period Of time lose the interest.

00:22:33: I'm just like, oh we're doing this again are we?

00:22:38: Oh We coming back to do in the same thing over and over again.

00:22:40: okay fair enough um And i would tend to have that engagement and have an experience That is really beneficial and then at a certain point It's just it Just kind of sometimes feels Like it goes into repetition if Feels like its not challenging me anymore now If I want to be authentic in the way that i learned shigun, and need to find the teachers who challenge me.

00:23:12: These are things which is important but when im teaching... ...I cannot do it for everybody!

00:23:24: I create a space that's held in hope people will get engaged and curious in an authentic way is also listening and responding to the group, allowing yourself as a teacher to be challenged by the group.

00:23:40: This to me feels very much like chief field theory where we talk about you know everything is connected because you should be able to listen to the Group.

00:23:50: You Should Be Able To Respect In Response The Group And That Makes It Authentic As A Chief Field.

00:23:58: Whereas if it's just person going oh I was taught that i need to stand here and chant this or wave my arms around like this, even if they believe it.

00:24:10: If they're not listening to anybody It's just an imposition of their thoughts on people.

00:24:15: that is kind one way traffic.

00:24:17: That doesn't feel authentic To me.

00:24:22: We have a lot of different teachers in our community.

00:24:26: Do you know why?

00:24:27: They joined us and how many there are?

00:24:33: I was going to say, you would have to ask them.

00:24:36: But i would like to think it's because we offer something that is truly a space where you can engage and listen and learn from each other That its somewhere that were not engaged in hierarchy.

00:24:49: It's some way the vision of being able do something which is truly supportive And on purely business level.

00:24:58: The cost for setting up the kind thing we're doing here is not insignificant.

00:25:06: And if every single teacher tries to do that, Every single teacher then gets more focused on.

00:25:11: I have to earn the money To pay my bills and everybody's going into exactly same people Going.

00:25:18: come to my club!

00:25:19: Come to my Club Whereas we create a large area where people can accumulate and everybody can be working within that.

00:25:31: And then you could move from one teacher to the next, You can explore different ideas... ...you can find things that inspire in a moment but maybe would never go back too not feel bad about it.

00:25:42: It's also part of academy.

00:25:44: That is what I think exciting being part of Chigo Academy The idea that we aren't teachers We are group And the group is always changing and moving.

00:26:02: At some point, I'm going to be able step back from a lot of it... ...and everything will just be moving!

00:26:11: Different teachers different practitioners everyone working together.

00:26:15: How would you describe Qigong Academy into person who never practiced Qigang?

00:26:19: Who never went in this kind of space alive?

00:26:24: In short or easy words?

00:26:29: Try It

00:26:30: Sorry?

00:26:31: Try it

00:26:34: Okay, maybe a little bit longer words.

00:26:39: I think the problem that you have is everybody engages with Qigong for different reasons and if...and you need to listen and understand what it is they're looking for And you need be honest about It.

00:26:52: so You could find somebody wants come in because They want To learn The details of a particular style Of qi gong But somebody else may want to come in because they... ...want to find a particular approach, or something that really works for them.

00:27:10: In which case you stand more chance of doing that within a group That's got multiple approaches and multiple teachers And the flexibility To move between.

00:27:19: then The ability to kind of cherry-pick Find the bits Then spend time in areas that inspire You while still having an awareness Of other bits.

00:27:29: That to me gives you the potential to get the most out of practice.

00:27:36: You haven't just bought your new car, and you can't carry on with... And you can change cars!

00:27:43: It's like..you've found somewhere that everything is present.... ...and you work around it in a way where you find your benefit.

00:27:52: Nobody will be able to get everything within the Shigong Academy-it's too big.

00:27:58: but you'll find things which inspire you.

00:28:00: That's what you should be.

00:28:04: I would say we come to a close, do you have any closing words here?

00:28:08: Or ideas or anything.

00:28:11: Wouldn't it be great if the internet was as stable as Qigong is?

00:28:15: That will be amazing!

00:28:15: I guess that'll be our first episode... We need to cut a little bit in there.

00:28:22: Yeah.. It's strange and does this sometimes.

00:28:28: Final word….

00:28:31: I like the idea of the future of Qigung can still be supportive of the inspirational teachers who are out there, but it's not so much about trying to hold on to students.

00:28:43: It's not too much about getting caught in your identity as a teacher or practitioner –it is about space of oneness and interaction and mutual learning.

00:28:56: Ultimately you learn from skills that you find hugely beneficial every day life.

00:29:03: That to me is what Chicago Academy should be.

00:29:06: I would say it's a wonderful wrap up or rounding.

00:29:10: Thank you for listening, thank you for watching and see you and listen.

00:29:15: Oh Yeah whatever.

00:29:17: oh My god,

00:29:22: this one's a mess.

00:29:24: yes

00:29:24: stop it!

00:29:26: Thank You For Watching.

00:29:27: Thank You for Listening And See You Next Week.