Episode 1 – Has Zhineng Qigong lost it's way?

00:00:02: Welcome to our new podcast format.

00:00:05: I have no idea if i take this phrasing, but yeah let's see from Chigong Academy.

00:00:10: so we're curious woohoo!

00:00:12: To do some podcasts and tell us about thoughts and visions and offers all around from Chigo Academy ,from our community the playground of how can you adapt Eastern Chigong Principles to the Western New Age Format.

00:00:34: Thanks, so nice to have you here John!

00:00:38: Cheers Joe.

00:00:38: good to be here.

00:00:39: Great

00:00:41: though.

00:00:41: um You published yesterday an article which is really a little bit disruptive I would say.

00:00:47: Do you want to tell me what droves you if that makes sense in English?

00:00:56: To write this type of article?

00:00:59: And what was your motivation behind that?

00:01:01: Because it feels like there is a bigger motivation at the ground.

00:01:08: Oh yeah, just... Just a little question.

00:01:12: My experience of Qigong Is the first ten years I practiced for.

00:01:19: It was all self-congratulatory twaddle.

00:01:26: It was useful, I got better at certain things.

00:01:29: But it wasn't impactful... ...it didn't really ask me the difficult questions that needed to be asked And then i came across Zheneng and Zheneng is a system which was challenging for me because it's uncomfortable and difficult.

00:01:51: but my sense is within the world of Jenning, we tend to have backed away from the difficult.

00:01:59: We tend to back away from being challenging.

00:02:03: and I don't know why this has happened because if i hear the stories about Pang...I hear about somebody who was willing to be very challenging with people You know, and a lot of the things that he said right at the beginning you know there's less we've got.

00:02:20: uh... That would be able to get hold off an work on translation with gal.

00:02:25: Which was done right in the begining of Jineng And is talking about taking down hierarchies removing traditions getting rid of these satiric superstitious.

00:02:35: yet if u look what we have now We had a weirdly hierarchical system really kind of esoteric and superstitious ideas around Chieffield, and lineage.

00:02:48: And it's gone completely the opposite way to the ways that Pang set out.

00:02:54: I think we need a conversation about this now... ...I'm quite happy for everybody to tell me i am wrong….

00:03:01: …and take a slightly hard-line approach on it so we can have that conversation in the middle ground but just feel like you do something which actually goes.

00:03:10: What was this thing that was invented?

00:03:12: Because it wasn't pink and fluffy.

00:03:14: And it wasn t howler, howler Howler.

00:03:17: It Was Something That Was Far More Effective From Far More Hard Hitting Than That.

00:03:24: All Right!

00:03:26: Let's See So When You Say It Was Introduced Like That.

00:03:32: Can You Tell Me More About From Your Knowledge Where Jin-Nang Came from And What Was The Vision From Dr Pang?

00:03:40: Do you Know more about?

00:03:44: I kind of, can express what i know at the moment.

00:03:50: And each time my spend-time with Teacher Gao on The Translation Projects that we've got going on here and we're going to be retranslating all our main books used in the two year programme At the Huaija Centre We are going re-translating them.

00:04:09: Each Time I work With Him I find more that I hadn't twig to.

00:04:16: So where i currently am with it, um...I think we need to be having awareness of the situation in China when Zheneng was created because Pang was very much part of The Establishment he is very much a part of Communist Party and He Was Working With A System And He Was Workin To Develop a Qigong That Was Acceptable to the government, and truly accessible for people who he was working with.

00:04:51: It needed a follow-up of the government which had to be health focused and scientific.

00:04:57: Now I think what he did that was astonishing is that he managed to do this very effectively without killing the spiritual aspect.

00:05:07: in practice it's still there explicit.

00:05:15: But he was very clear about certain things, you know?

00:05:17: He makes this statement in the letter that there should be no hierarchy.

00:05:22: everybody should accept that everyone else is their teacher.

00:05:27: but let's just go with some Chinese teachers.

00:05:35: I don't want to name names here.

00:05:42: treat everybody as if they're a lower being, regardless of how much experience that have.

00:05:50: They kind look down on in really weird way and there's fake humility within it.

00:05:58: just makes me go.

00:06:00: this isn't what was going on

00:06:02: but is something like you experienced almost every area I would say tennis or football.

00:06:13: Yeah, and it's completely as a business approach.

00:06:18: As a marketing approach... ...as the way to keep hold of your clients,... ..as a way make yourself good amount of money is completely valid.

00:06:26: And of course Qigong will not operate outside those constructs.

00:06:31: but we need to recognise that isn't the nature of Qigung That Is The Business Of Qigeng!

00:06:37: The nature of qigong & the business of qi gong feel like they are two very separate things

00:06:44: Right.

00:06:44: Okay, where is the red line I would say between business Qigong and real Qigun or how you tell that?

00:06:55: Or call it a real thing!

00:06:59: I think this kind of... It's weird one to answer.

00:07:04: Excuse me for second but i'm just gonna shut the door.

00:07:06: Alright

00:07:09: There we go.

00:07:10: proves it's real and that is not on AI, I think.

00:07:12: Okay so yeah because as i was putting the stuff together yesterday ,I'm being quite strongly critical about Qigong running as a business while at the same time The Qigang Academy Is kind of unashamedly running As A Business.

00:07:30: So aren't I just you know what am I actually doing here?

00:07:35: I Think fundamentally there are two things That um Are important to me At this point and one is about accessibility.

00:07:45: I had a conversation recently with um, One of the Qigong organizations.

00:07:51: they're charging two hundred fifty pounds per day person to go spend time with their Chinese teacher And that isn't a one-to-one.

00:07:59: That's big groups for people.

00:08:02: How many people who are in need can afford To spend two hundred and fifty pounds A Day?

00:08:10: While there's also this claim that Qigong should be available to everybody, but you're clearly it isn't available to everyone.

00:08:17: It is available for the people who have got a significant amount of money to spend on something they are either passionate about because... ...they love what they do or become dependent and can't find answers to their health and well-being anywhere else.

00:08:34: And neither way I break down that feeling feels exploitative.

00:08:39: I have no issue with the fact that people need to make money in order cover costs.

00:08:45: But at what point does it become profiteering?

00:08:49: Because, that isn't something... That is Qigong business!

00:08:55: It's not about making loads of money out of people.

00:08:57: For God sakes, Huajal Centre was between a hundred and three hundred yuan per month To go there like between ten and thirty pounds a month.

00:09:07: And that wasn't just tuition.

00:09:08: That was food and board as well, you know pain developed.

00:09:12: something that was accessible.

00:09:13: Why we?

00:09:14: why is this now spiraled into?

00:09:16: Something that's inaccessible and I think that that's one of the things within the Qigong Academy.

00:09:21: Yes We've set the price at thirty five pounds a month Because they need to be able to cover our costs.

00:09:27: so me want to pay out teachers and we live in A society but it's far more expensive than nineteen nineties China.

00:09:34: But You know, the bottom line is it should be accessible to people.

00:09:38: There should never be financial barriers too this.

00:09:40: but yet The profiteering means that financial barriers go up.

00:09:45: So that's the first one...the second one Sorry I'm off on One!

00:09:51: The second thing That i think Is important is that Within Pang's teaching he always seemed To Be saying there Should be no hierarchy.

00:10:01: Everybody as a teacher everybody is equal.

00:10:05: Now, we can kind of pull that one apart in many ways.

00:10:09: But the issue I have is a lot of the Qigong businesses.

00:10:14: you have a primary teacher who then is the main figurehead promoted and again... Is this personal or marketing machine behind them?

00:10:31: You know i've spent time with quite high profile teachers And I like them.

00:10:36: I've learned a lot from them, but the way it's presented they become destination teachers.

00:10:47: oh i can't wait to go back and see such-and-such next year!

00:10:51: I've got a retreat booked with thingy you know?

00:10:55: It is just that this actually what we should be having in Qigong is more about...I have discovered an amazing thing for myself.

00:11:07: I've got a community of people here that are supportive.

00:11:10: There's a group of people there, this is the chief field.

00:11:12: The Chief Field Is A Non-Hierarchical Space That We Can Be Supportive Of Each Other.

00:11:19: It Isn't A Pyramid With The Main Teacher Sitting At The Top.

00:11:27: That'S Not What it IS But THAT'S THE WAY IT IS PRESENTED THROUGH THE BUSINESS.

00:11:32: So That'S Why Actually Going To Academy.

00:11:34: I Think The Thing That'S Really Important to Us Is That WE REMOVE THE Hierarchy.

00:11:39: Do you experience that just the last years, I would say?

00:11:43: Or do you experience for a longer period?

00:11:46: there are more hierarchies out there or was till the first day.

00:11:53: Um...I've become more sensitive to it over time.

00:11:59: When i was first training with ... I guess its almost twenty years since I started training in Cheneng.. ..i wasn't overly aware of it.

00:12:10: After maybe five years, I noticed there were certain teachers that when we running three monkeys for example.

00:12:17: There was a couple of times where we had interactions with people and the teacher is saying We want access to your database or get access all if you are able To message them directly You're kind going well That doesn't make sense to me.

00:12:36: There were few teachers at this point who took decision never work because of the way they were running as a business.

00:12:45: And yeah, I mean we also see...I think there's traditionally that always seems to be a lot of mudflung at Ming Tong Go and i think Ming Tong is an interesting case in point here.

00:13:01: he has a reputation for being expensive but he's also very much loved.

00:13:10: There is nothing wrong with spending time with teachers like this.

00:13:15: But I think we need to have an awareness of when you are being empowered by it, and when you're being disempowered by it because empowering somebody doesn't sit so well with a business structure.

00:13:28: Right?

00:13:30: Yeah interesting right?

00:13:32: um i know that in the Western society there's a bias.

00:13:40: it throws up a question when you're a Qigong teacher, for example.

00:13:46: Am I allowed to charge money from the people i teach or give practice session?

00:13:53: And how much am I allowed do so?

00:13:58: yeah and again there's weird hierarchy here running the teacher training in.

00:14:04: the people say oh I can't charge people Why not?

00:14:11: You have costs.

00:14:13: You probably have the highest cost ever when you're going through your training, so not only are you paying for your training... ...you've probably got to go and hire a space to work with it!

00:14:22: You need to market that, do all of these bits & pieces….

00:14:25: …You NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING TO SUPPORT YOURSELF FINANCIALLY IN THAT SITUATION.

00:14:30: And if say I don't want anything in return quite often that translates as I give no value, therefore i offer...I want nothing back.

00:14:42: And then you go to the other end of the scale where people are paying a vast amount of money because they have complete faith in the teacher instead of having faith in themselves.

00:14:54: there's kind of a middle point interesting, juicy point where there is a lot of opportunity for people to collaborate and work together.

00:15:08: And actually everybody learns every body has empowered it's mutually supportive.

00:15:14: So I think that also applies to the price point.

00:15:17: iIthink There Is A Price Point That Sits In The Middle.

00:15:20: Now I Think That Price Point Varies Depending On Which Country You're In And Overall Financial Ability Within The Country.

00:15:30: The vision that we have with the Academy is, every teacher who works with us will get paid exactly the same amount of money.

00:15:37: And it's an hourly rate for the sessions they do and doesn't matter if you're fresh out your training or whether you are stuck in a way as old-teacher like me everybody should be getting payed the exact same amount because all of them must offer.

00:16:00: It

00:16:03: sounds like a fair plan, I would say.

00:16:12: When i ran through the non-violent communication training... ...I took that guy who run this trainer on a kind of step up where I am not or wasn't so he knows more!

00:16:27: He's kinda the king and teaches me stuff.

00:16:33: But there was a very, very toxic kind of relationship on the long term.

00:16:42: I guess we are trained like that where as society Western or Eastern There were warriors or emperors and so on.

00:16:52: Is it time to break that bias?

00:16:56: Or get rid off in this realm of Qigong?

00:17:03: Yeah, thanks for that.

00:17:04: That's a proper juicy one!

00:17:06: I think from a very young age.

00:17:08: our interaction with teachers and our interaction.

00:17:11: learning is... You know stuff.

00:17:15: you're going to give us the stuff we've got.

00:17:17: remember this stuff?

00:17:21: You learn technique, facts, process theory.

00:17:27: all of rest are good stuff.

00:17:29: And then i have ask question why?

00:17:34: For my early stages or early times I would say to survive, right?

00:17:38: Yeah.

00:17:38: To survive in NVC and nonviolent communication.

00:17:42: why do you learn the technique?

00:17:45: because i really want a deep dive into kind of feelings.

00:17:48: how can I express feeling?

00:17:50: so can communicate feelings uh...to other people And maybe train my empathy and differentiate between empathy and sympathy.

00:18:03: So, so you've got the technique and your benefit.

00:18:09: Yeah?

00:18:10: Okay if you put that back into a more academic kind of school thing we tend to learn...so when you go to school why do you learn the subjects that you learned?

00:18:23: Why did you learn information at school?

00:18:28: To be honest most of them are so.

00:18:29: they can pass an exam.

00:18:32: Exactly

00:18:34: It's put stuff in so that you can then regurgitate it.

00:18:38: You can vomit all over an exam paper at the end of a year and show how much I could remember, um...it is kind-of way of absorbing information.

00:18:48: Now if you go what we are doing within Qigong there is argument here which says We're completely opposite to learning spectrum to what you do in school or what you're doing academia, because we are interested is recognizing it's basically an unlearning space.

00:19:10: It's about how do get somebody actually let go of the restrictions that bind them?

00:19:14: Of beliefs hold back from physical limitations they can move through and emotional stuff limiting their potential.

00:19:27: Jigong is a learning process And as such, it means that as teachers we have something really quite tricky to do because not only are we using a technique that is not of our culture normally and the process that's aligned with what most people learn.

00:19:51: But we need hold ourselves in space so we can prevent others from getting overly attached.

00:20:01: we need to be able to hold the space so that people can find this stuff for themselves.

00:20:07: Have you got a cat just turned up there?

00:20:11: I mean, then...

00:20:13: No no i-i-I can see colours move!

00:20:16: I can see shadows.

00:20:17: i was thinking as..

00:20:18: It's just close to window because it's different going out there.

00:20:22: okay uh yeah they're interesting.

00:20:26: So when the phrase becoming empty but not empty becomes more kind of meaning or You can take that maybe even easier or something.

00:20:38: But is it all about to just unlearn?

00:20:43: Because

00:20:44: I experienced like when you're more and more unlearned, your kind of uncover your over-trained biases and convincing things And you recognize more who really are And how you really feel and what do you really believe?

00:21:08: So make sense.

00:21:10: Yeah, I think that is the nature of Qigong.

00:21:15: The benefit it creates space.

00:21:18: there's a...I love the idea.

00:21:20: she can only flow where they're in space for her to flow.

00:21:24: If theres no space for it to flow then qi attaches into whatever is in this space.

00:21:29: It kind of binds with it If you're holding on to a bit of information or belief, and it's getting in the way of everything.

00:21:36: You practice Qigong... ...you can actually reinforce that belief.

00:21:41: And we do see this.

00:21:45: We do see issues with Qigung where people have used the Qigun in order to reinforce a belief system Or really enforce narrative Or somehow support that narrative doesn't actually create freedom.

00:22:02: It creates focus and it kind of builds barriers, that isn't being skilful with your chi is allowing you to flow through.

00:22:14: so you need remove the barriers.

00:22:17: So yeah...to me..it should always be that The other thing I think....the number times i've been asked over years will do a demonstration for us And I'm just like, no!

00:22:33: What am i?

00:22:33: A performing monkey.

00:22:35: You know it's not a performative practice.

00:22:44: We don't need to get dressed up in silk pyjamas and stand by stream or on a beach In order to get the benefit from that is a performance That isn't real Qigong.

00:22:56: Real qi gong Is the stuff we do for ourselves that creates us a real difference For Us as individuals and helps us understand the nature of relationship with... ...the nature of quietness, the nature stillness.

00:23:10: That's what Qigong is.

00:23:12: but you know we have these conversations sometimes don't hear about.

00:23:18: should be have Qigung Academy t-shirts?

00:23:20: And there's a past me that goes yes!

00:23:22: We should have Qagong Academy T-shirts.

00:23:23: and then another pass to me who says oh no can you imagine A whole room full of people are wearing the Qigong Academy t-shirts going, oh I can do this move.

00:23:31: And no!

00:23:34: That's not it!

00:23:37: So you we can just sell kind of unprinted trust?

00:23:42: Yeah very regular t-shirt.

00:23:45: Pure t- shirts.

00:23:47: Just

00:23:47: find your own stuff on it

00:23:51: yeah or with nothing on it.

00:23:53: This is like The Qigongs State T-Shirt.

00:23:56: And then we can put our business heads on and charge three times as much for them because they're so much purer.

00:24:01: Yeah, absolutely!

00:24:02: We watched it triple-times with a

00:24:06: free

00:24:08: turn... Which I would say is there are three questions.

00:24:11: should you ask yourself when your a Qigong teacher becoming a Qagong teacher?

00:24:16: As well the old wise Qigung teachers...?

00:24:29: Certainly, one of the questions I think you need to ask is what do want achieve by becoming a Qigong teacher?

00:24:39: Within that all other question probably exist.

00:24:44: A lot people when they choose become Qigung teachers.

00:24:47: there's little bit internal saviour going on and can help people!

00:24:55: That really noble approach.

00:25:00: But it's one that will destroy you because if You become good at what?

00:25:06: Do and your out there to help people.

00:25:08: You are giving of yourself, you're draining Yourself And you need to understand your relationship with helping People Because the nature Of That Relationship is more about creating space for them To do amazing things For themselves.

00:25:25: Then It Is About You Doing Amazing Things for Them And that balance is really important.

00:25:31: If you're going into Qigong to be rich and famous, there's not so many people who achieve that... ...and I'm not sure in achieving that whether you have anything to do with Qigung?

00:25:44: You just turn it into a Qigun business person!

00:25:48: You become a spiritual celebrity or something.. ..and okay i don't know how sustainable this is.

00:25:58: I imagine it must be absolutely exhausting trying to cover up all your dirty little secrets when you're in those positions.

00:26:08: Just on that note, i've hosted quite a lot of the Chinese teachers here and seeing them dyeing their grey hair black so they can maintain image...I think this is just.

00:26:21: You know,

00:26:24: there's a whole load of stuff that sits here.

00:26:26: That I think is fascinating.

00:26:29: What else would i say?

00:26:33: The other thing comes up Is people don't realise how transformative it is.

00:26:41: People just think It was like Oh!

00:26:43: I could run a Qigong class once a week.

00:26:48: And actually the process learning to teach, the process of really engaging with Qigong.

00:26:54: The process that we take people through changes everything.

00:27:00: It means you live your life in a different way and sometimes it's subtly different but sometimes feels significantly different.

00:27:09: That is the nature of Qigung.

00:27:11: unless teacher can continue evolve or grow why would they go?

00:27:17: Because their just stuck into ways.

00:27:21: I mean that maybe opens up the question what is the motivation of a person who goes to Chigong class or Chigon practice session.

00:27:33: For some people, it's just nice being in kind-of group and doing an interesting thing called chigong And for other peep...and maybe just doing movement waving at their arms and legs around you say multiple times And for others, it's a really path to their inner self kind of thing.

00:27:55: I mean... The question is what is Qigong for you as a specific or individual person who goes through this?

00:28:04: Yeah and here again we need to go.

00:28:07: What does the expectation of somebody Who-you know-what does that person comes from a Qigun class want?

00:28:15: What do they expect?

00:28:17: is what you're doing, meeting the expectation.

00:28:25: Is it supportive?

00:28:27: Is it

00:28:27: challenging?".

00:28:29: These types of questions come up an awful lot for me because working with different audiences and a way that you have to adapt to different audiences... You know I've worked with a pretty wide range people in the time i've been doing.

00:28:47: having the ability to adjust the way that you express the practice so it hits the mark, I think is a skill we need to hone.

00:28:57: But yeah what do people expect?

00:28:59: Um...I think there was an interesting comment on this.

00:29:04: uh good few years back where um somebody i was working with said The thing about Shigongi's that most.

00:29:15: But what they don't realize is that the healing as a gateway into practice.

00:29:19: Once the healing has happened, That's when the practice begins Can I think state

00:29:26: of here will be healed?

00:29:29: Yeah And so if you come in order to heal something within yourself physically emotionally Mentally spiritually however that and i think even hearing it becomes slightly contentious word you are looking for a benefit.

00:29:46: You're, you were looking for things to work in a more comfortable way within your life.

00:29:52: once you find that quite a lot of people will then step away from the practice because it's done its job and I think that that is completely valid unfair thing to do.

00:30:04: but if you stay with the practice you then start to understand little bit more about what sits behind it.

00:30:09: so instead I need to get away from this thing.

00:30:17: It becomes a life-focused, and...I'm going to change this

00:30:21: thing.".

00:30:21: And i think that quite a lot of people who teach you don't necessarily start teaching with an awareness of the bit comes after.

00:30:30: You tend to teach based on expectation or what come before.

00:30:39: So last question Why have you established your go academy?

00:30:44: Maybe another question too combined What do you want to achieve?

00:30:50: Oh, glad he held.

00:30:51: Go for the big one!

00:30:52: Right I'm always inspired by... It's a guy who founded the electronics company Panasonic A guy called Kamasugi Matsushita and in later life He was asked about a certain project that had got going.

00:31:11: How many years until you achieved your reign with this?

00:31:14: And his response is all three or four hundred years.

00:31:18: I like the idea of something that is that far off, we're moving towards.

00:31:25: The thing that's so far-off and I want to be part of... ...is a movement which means us as human race start taking more responsibility for our wellbeing.

00:31:38: We take more responsibility looking after ourselves physically mentally emotionally and spiritually And being aware of the impact that we have on everyone and everything around us, so that we can live a more harmonious life.

00:31:59: I think for me... ...I cannot see it happening in my lifetime because there are many moving parts to this You know?

00:32:11: We need multiple generations to go through So the patterns which currently exist start to resolve.

00:32:20: But if I can be part of a movement that actually supports that growth and the evolution, in that change.

00:32:26: That excites me!

00:32:29: And within that... ...I really do not want to be remembered.

00:32:36: I don't wanna have a legacy here.

00:32:38: That's not the point at all.

00:32:40: When i pass let-me go.. I'm gonna go off an explore what is next?

00:32:46: I dont' wan hooks back into this world.

00:32:49: But if in this space, I can be part of something and I can collaborate with people.

00:32:55: And work with people to make things better for generations to come... ...I'm deeply passionate about that!

00:33:03: I think she's very much a part of that.

00:33:06: I think that it holds the space where we can get Qigong teachers to actually talk and listen, support each other.

00:33:13: We create a place for practitioners who work with open-minded and aware Qigung teachers not destination teachers but signposts as we spoke about in this short.

00:33:25: We already have an impact on Oxford which is kind of mind blowing.

00:33:36: We've got other projects that are going on, other bits and pieces.

00:33:40: We're working with acupuncture schools.

00:33:41: we're working within the health service in certain areas.

00:33:45: all of this is not about trying to get people into study with me.

00:33:53: it's about how do we create funnels into a place that is actually operating in the way that Qigong was designed to operate which isn't a non-hierarchical accessible and supportive in order to meet people where they are and create space for Cheetah Flow more easily within them.

00:34:11: That's what I want now, that is why i'd like

00:34:25: it go!